interesting sawfish sword

fearn · 7th June 2006, 04:20 PM

Hi Tim,

You may well be right about the authenticity of the first sawfish bill.

As for this one, it's good to have n2s's information about the sawfish bills in Valparaiso. It makes a fair amount of sense. Given the CITES rules (all sawfish are, I believe, listed species), I don't think I'd try to bring one back to the US.

As for steel tools in Oceania, when they came in depends on where you are. Stone tools are still (or were very recently) used one one or two small islands (google on tepuke for an example of canoe building), while the Hawaiians were reshaping iron from nails and bolts very early on. They got the metal through trading with sailors and scavenging wrecks, and taught themselves the rest.

Basically, I would guess that a piece could have been made with stone tools before ~1850 in Polynesia or Micronesia (depending on contact date), before 1900 in most of oceanic Melanesia, and before ~1950 in highland PNG (remember that many of the last were contacted until the 1930s or later). In general, steel tools make finer and more complex wood work possible. For instance, the scrolls on the current piece would be very difficult to chip out with a bone chisel.

F

VANDOO · 7th June 2006, 04:50 PM

THE AFRICAN EXAMPLE LINKED BY Iainn IS WHAT I WOULD EXPECT A NATIVE MADE WEAPON USING A SAWFISH OR SWORDFISH BILL TO LOOK LIKE. CLUBS WHICH WERE THE MAIN STRIKING WEAPON THROUGHOUT OCEANA DO NOT HAVE GAURDS SO WHY WOULD THEY GO TO ALL THE EXTRA TROUBLE OF MAKEING ONE UNLESS IT WAS DUE TO EUROPEAN INFLUENCE. IT ALSO WOULD MAKE THE SWORD WEAKER AND HEAVIER AT THE HANDLE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO USE WITH BOTH HANDS.

I ALSO SUSPECT THAT MANY OF THESE MAY COME FROM AFRICA AS THERE ARE VERY MANY LARGE SAWFISH IN THE RED SEA AND INDIAN OCEAN. I SAW THE LARGEST I HAVE SEEN IN DJBOUTI OVER 5 FEET LONG AND THERE WERE LOTS OF THEM IN ALL THE SELLERS STALLS BUT ALL WERE IN THEIR NATURAL STATE. THERE WAS ALSO MUCH EARLIER CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO USED SWORDS WITH GAURDS IN THAT REGION OF THE WORLD. LOTS OF SAILING SHIPS FROM MANY COUNTRYS FREQUENTED THE MAIN PORTS THERE ALSO. I SUSPECT THERE MUST BE A MARKET FOR THEM OR THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SO MANY IN THE SHOPS, PERHAPS THEY ARE A INGREDIENT IN SOME ORIENTAL MEDICINES.

not2sharp · 7th June 2006, 07:19 PM

I found this image on google of someone buying a sword fish sword in Chile.

n2s

7th June 2006, 04:20 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, You may well be right about the authenticity of the first sawfish bill. As for this one, it's good to have n2s's information about the sawfish bills in Valparaiso. It makes a fair amount of sense. Given the CITES rules (all sawfish are, I believe, listed species), I don't think I'd try to bring one back to the US. As for steel tools in Oceania, when they came in depends on where you are. Stone tools are still (or were very recently) used one one or two small islands (google on tepuke for an example of canoe building), while the Hawaiians were reshaping iron from nails and bolts very early on. They got the metal through trading with sailors and scavenging wrecks, and taught themselves the rest. Basically, I would guess that a piece could have been made with stone tools before ~1850 in Polynesia or Micronesia (depending on contact date), before 1900 in most of oceanic Melanesia, and before ~1950 in highland PNG (remember that many of the last were contacted until the 1930s or later). In general, steel tools make finer and more complex wood work possible. For instance, the scrolls on the current piece would be very difficult to chip out with a bone chisel. F

7th June 2006, 04:50 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE AFRICAN EXAMPLE LINKED BY Iainn IS WHAT I WOULD EXPECT A NATIVE MADE WEAPON USING A SAWFISH OR SWORDFISH BILL TO LOOK LIKE. CLUBS WHICH WERE THE MAIN STRIKING WEAPON THROUGHOUT OCEANA DO NOT HAVE GAURDS SO WHY WOULD THEY GO TO ALL THE EXTRA TROUBLE OF MAKEING ONE UNLESS IT WAS DUE TO EUROPEAN INFLUENCE. IT ALSO WOULD MAKE THE SWORD WEAKER AND HEAVIER AT THE HANDLE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO USE WITH BOTH HANDS. I ALSO SUSPECT THAT MANY OF THESE MAY COME FROM AFRICA AS THERE ARE VERY MANY LARGE SAWFISH IN THE RED SEA AND INDIAN OCEAN. I SAW THE LARGEST I HAVE SEEN IN DJBOUTI OVER 5 FEET LONG AND THERE WERE LOTS OF THEM IN ALL THE SELLERS STALLS BUT ALL WERE IN THEIR NATURAL STATE. THERE WAS ALSO MUCH EARLIER CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO USED SWORDS WITH GAURDS IN THAT REGION OF THE WORLD. LOTS OF SAILING SHIPS FROM MANY COUNTRYS FREQUENTED THE MAIN PORTS THERE ALSO. I SUSPECT THERE MUST BE A MARKET FOR THEM OR THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SO MANY IN THE SHOPS, PERHAPS THEY ARE A INGREDIENT IN SOME ORIENTAL MEDICINES.

7th June 2006, 07:19 PM	#3
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	I found this image on google of someone buying a sword fish sword in Chile. n2s