Chinese, Tibetan, Indian or African Sword?

drac2k · 27th December 2021, 07:50 PM

I recently picked up this sword and the tip reminded me of a Chinese or Tibetan trousse; the 22.5" blade is razor-sharp, so this is clearly a slashing weapon. It isn't a sword cane as the scabbard starts out round, but it eventually begins to flatten out as a more conventional sheath would; maybe the wire work on the scabbard is an indication of the origin. As shown the tip is broken off.
I was wondering if anyone else knew where this might have come from?

Ian · 27th December 2021, 08:40 PM

I would say this blade is shorter than it started out. The tip is off center.

Sajen · 27th December 2021, 08:42 PM

Hello Drac2k,

I don't have an informed answer, I can only tell you my observations and my resultant conclusions.

The blade form reminds me of Chinese jian swords, and the blade seems laminated, another hint that it could be a jian blade maybe in a rural area fitted with new mountings. The wire binding I only have seen by South-East-Asian blades and the lacquer work at the handle could also be Chinese.
A refitted jian blade??

Only my 2cents.

Regards,
Detlef

francantolin · 27th December 2021, 08:43 PM

Hello,

a composite item ?...

the hilt seems indian as we can see on indian sword canes as you said,
assembled on a shortened chinese jian blade ?

drac2k · 28th December 2021, 04:51 AM

All very good observations from all parties . Yes I believe that it is a shortened blade, but the tip configuration seemed strange and it reminded me of a Chinese trousse tip. I too am leaning towards Chinese because of the Jian-like blade configuration, the scrollwork on the scabbard which almost looks like a Dha sheath. The blade above the handle does appear to have some European sword characteristics which could be a repurposed sword or one made in imitation and as such, I certainly think that it could be a composite sword.
I thought that it could possibly be Indian because of the cane-like handle, maybe it was a Fakir's weapon, and I have a couple of Indian ax handles that reminded me of the same color scheme.
Lastly, I threw in African because when all else fails, and no viable guess can be made, I attribute these items as possibly belonging to that land of mystery.

Peter Andeweg · 28th December 2021, 04:01 PM

Interesting piece!

I would lean toward a 'refurbished' Chinese Jian in a Banjarmasin/Kalimantan dress. The Chinese were represented in large numbers due to trade in Southern Borneo. The bright red colour is often seen on edged weapons from this region and the typical knot is also largely associated with this region, however it is mostly seen in rattan.

I would date it in the 19th century.

Regards, Peter

drac2k · 28th December 2021, 08:57 PM

Thanks, Peter that would certainly be great news. Just to throw a wrench into the works, the knot on the scabbard reminds me of one on a Dyak Mandau sheath; it still could have the Chinese connection as the Dyaks had a great deal of contact with the Chinese, either by trading or piracy.

ariel · 4th January 2022, 01:29 AM

Yes, the blade almost certainly is a shortened Jian . But the handle does look Indian. I would guess that overall it is a composite Sino-Indian Gupti.

josh stout · 5th January 2022, 06:13 PM

I agree it is probably a jian blade. I also think it may be in its original dress, as it was put together in China. The knot may be influenced by a minority group, but the overall form is that of a "stick jian" or perhaps also called a "gun jian".

The tip has been modified.

I have one that is similar, and it is definitely all Chinese. From the overall work, I would say these are village manufacture, and likely to have a lot of variation within the form. I think it is a somewhat rare type, so there are not too many examples with which to compare it.

I will see if I can dig up a photo of mine.

josh stout · 5th January 2022, 07:35 PM

I found a few old photos of my stick jian. It is likely Republican era, and definitely a fighting piece. The blade shows good lamination and a slightly triangular tip. The tip on the example that started the thread may have been an attempt to recreate a triangle point that had become rounded with sharpening.

My example is 100% Chinese, and I think it is close enough to the posted one. I see no reaason to think the posted one is anything other than a Chinese stick jian with perhaps some minority influence.

ariel · 5th January 2022, 10:28 PM

Good examples.
Indian Gupti takes the silver, but the gold goes to China.
Nice start of Winter Olympics:-)

drac2k · 6th January 2022, 01:41 PM

Josh, you put to rest the origins of the sword. I'm surprised that I haven't run into one of these "stick swords," before. Were these used rurally or were they a poor man's Jian, perhaps used by gangs or laborers? Is there a specific region in China where they were prevalent?

27th December 2021, 07:50 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Chinese, Tibetan, Indian or African Sword? I recently picked up this sword and the tip reminded me of a Chinese or Tibetan trousse; the 22.5" blade is razor-sharp, so this is clearly a slashing weapon. It isn't a sword cane as the scabbard starts out round, but it eventually begins to flatten out as a more conventional sheath would; maybe the wire work on the scabbard is an indication of the origin. As shown the tip is broken off. I was wondering if anyone else knew where this might have come from? Attached Images

28th December 2021, 08:57 PM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks, Peter that would certainly be great news. Just to throw a wrench into the works, the knot on the scabbard reminds me of one on a Dyak Mandau sheath; it still could have the Chinese connection as the Dyaks had a great deal of contact with the Chinese, either by trading or piracy. Last edited by drac2k; 28th December 2021 at 09:12 PM. Reason: to add information

5th January 2022, 07:35 PM	#10
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I found a few old photos of my stick jian. It is likely Republican era, and definitely a fighting piece. The blade shows good lamination and a slightly triangular tip. The tip on the example that started the thread may have been an attempt to recreate a triangle point that had become rounded with sharpening. My example is 100% Chinese, and I think it is close enough to the posted one. I see no reaason to think the posted one is anything other than a Chinese stick jian with perhaps some minority influence. Attached Images

27th December 2021, 08:40 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	I would say this blade is shorter than it started out. The tip is off center.

27th December 2021, 08:42 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hello Drac2k, I don't have an informed answer, I can only tell you my observations and my resultant conclusions. The blade form reminds me of Chinese jian swords, and the blade seems laminated, another hint that it could be a jian blade maybe in a rural area fitted with new mountings. The wire binding I only have seen by South-East-Asian blades and the lacquer work at the handle could also be Chinese. A refitted jian blade?? Only my 2cents. Regards, Detlef

27th December 2021, 08:43 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 871	Hello, a composite item ?... the hilt seems indian as we can see on indian sword canes as you said, assembled on a shortened chinese jian blade ?

28th December 2021, 04:51 AM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	All very good observations from all parties . Yes I believe that it is a shortened blade, but the tip configuration seemed strange and it reminded me of a Chinese trousse tip. I too am leaning towards Chinese because of the Jian-like blade configuration, the scrollwork on the scabbard which almost looks like a Dha sheath. The blade above the handle does appear to have some European sword characteristics which could be a repurposed sword or one made in imitation and as such, I certainly think that it could be a composite sword. I thought that it could possibly be Indian because of the cane-like handle, maybe it was a Fakir's weapon, and I have a couple of Indian ax handles that reminded me of the same color scheme. Lastly, I threw in African because when all else fails, and no viable guess can be made, I attribute these items as possibly belonging to that land of mystery.

28th December 2021, 04:01 PM	#6
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	Interesting piece! I would lean toward a 'refurbished' Chinese Jian in a Banjarmasin/Kalimantan dress. The Chinese were represented in large numbers due to trade in Southern Borneo. The bright red colour is often seen on edged weapons from this region and the typical knot is also largely associated with this region, however it is mostly seen in rattan. I would date it in the 19th century. Regards, Peter

4th January 2022, 01:29 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, the blade almost certainly is a shortened Jian . But the handle does look Indian. I would guess that overall it is a composite Sino-Indian Gupti.

5th January 2022, 06:13 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I agree it is probably a jian blade. I also think it may be in its original dress, as it was put together in China. The knot may be influenced by a minority group, but the overall form is that of a "stick jian" or perhaps also called a "gun jian". The tip has been modified. I have one that is similar, and it is definitely all Chinese. From the overall work, I would say these are village manufacture, and likely to have a lot of variation within the form. I think it is a somewhat rare type, so there are not too many examples with which to compare it. I will see if I can dig up a photo of mine.

5th January 2022, 10:28 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Good examples. Indian Gupti takes the silver, but the gold goes to China. Nice start of Winter Olympics:-)

6th January 2022, 01:41 PM	#12
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Josh, you put to rest the origins of the sword. I'm surprised that I haven't run into one of these "stick swords," before. Were these used rurally or were they a poor man's Jian, perhaps used by gangs or laborers? Is there a specific region in China where they were prevalent?