four foot rapier blades ???

[fernando]

Swords "off mark" (fora de marca) were those with more than 5 spans (palmos) with 43" full length, as per law published by King Dom João III in 1539. It is known that swords with a longer length abounded; some where up to 7 spans (over 60"), a length that became famous in those days.

If you deduct the guard+pommel to this, you get your four foot.

(3 Rapiers courtesy Algredo Nobre; Dom João III law collection Rainer Daehnhardt).


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[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernando. I am not surprised you rise to the occasion.
I am a little unclear when you talk about deducting the tang: was it customary for forgers to measure their blades including the tang ? It seems reasonable I suppose.
Did they really carry rapiers with 5 foot blades ?
Definitely puts you at an advantage reach-wise, but surely unwieldy to all but the biggest and strongest gentlemen.

[fernando]

Precisely ... the reach is the issue. The laws legislate on how far you can reach (your foe) with a whole sword and not how long is the blade. Blades may be short and hilts may be long; it is the whole thing that counts for the legislator.
Let me show ou a 'growing' rapier, one in that when in its 'normal' version does not challenge the law but, when you stretch it, it extends up to a seven span sword.
FYI, even Kings (secretly) had them, as you may read in the (left side) caption


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[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating.
I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Fernandez:...

It's Fernando; don't Spanishize me .

[urbanspaceman]

My sincere apologies, how careless.

[Peter Hudson]

Nice to see you on the page here Keith and I recall seeing this detail on your general page on Shotley Bridge Swords.
Dress at court was developing into a shortened jacket. Few people realise that the length of blade was more to do with fashion... As jackets became shorter so did blades. Your document also reveals the term hollows being used instead of the later term fullers.
We are so fortunate in having your input on Shotley Bridge since there is not one shred of remaining detail left standing on any artefact or building relating to the swordmakers except the existence of a local pub ...The Crown and Crossed Swords. In fact the same emblem of the crown and crossed swords was also used by the local maternity hospital The Richard Murray where I was born! I also spent a few years growing up in Shotley Bridge and at one time I lived actually in Wood Street but demolition had started by the time I was about 8 years old.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

My sincere apologies, how careless.

No problem ... at all .
I wouldn't think that, the reduction of swords length in connection with fashion issues, was already in place by the time of these early rapiers.
When we consider such extremely lengthy 'off mark' swords, for as tall as the owner was, would be a challenging task to carry them around in a 'conventinal' manner. I can imagine a servant carrying it for his master to go meet someone for a duel.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thank-you Fernandez: fascinating.
I was in the armoury down on the riverside in Lisbon a couple of years back (3 actually, now I think about it) and was not overwhelmed by the number of swords on display. Some interesting items definitely but I expected far, far more. Did I visit the wrong place?

The Military Museum down past the cruise ships berths had a reasonable number of swords. Went there in October this year. A few examples attached.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Triarii

The Military Museum down past the cruise ships berths had a reasonable number of swords. Went there in October this year. A few examples attached.

Very fine pictures. I visited the museum three times in the past and they never allowed me to take pictures. Would have they changed the rules ?

[fernando]

Comparing swords on how you can handle each of them is a tricky number. A slight difference in thickness along the whole blade makes a hell of a difference in weight. On the other hand, a sword being large is not necessarily heavy ... contrary to what many think. Still a sword with a rather long blade may be easy to handle when we mock fence with it but, in true combat, we would find ourselves not pondering on the correct distance bwteen us and our foe; even (fighting) space can be an issue.
I have a rapier (estoc like) with a 107 cms. blade, measuring 128 cms. in total. Extremely thin (13X8m/m), it weighs 810 grams. When i handle it, if feels like a feather weigth. But i would certainly not know what to do with such a long thing in a one versus one fight. This is why a determined type of swords require (school) training.
Note, i am no fencer nor swordsman. So don't pay much attention to what i say .

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very fine pictures. I visited the museum three times in the past and they never allowed me to take pictures. Would have they changed the rules ?

When I was there, in December 2018, I was the only person in the building. I was on a cruise ship and it was raining heavily and as I had seen the museum two or three times in the past, and not visited, it seemed like a perfect opportunity.
I photographed everything in the glass case - that didn't amount to much - with no interference from staff who were nowhere to be seen.
There were some magnificent displays in there, and the building itself is glorious, but there were only a handful of blades... and three of them were plugs: fine plugs yes, but surely they have a lot more available in the archives... why not put it out.
Of course, not everyone shares our enthusiasm for weaponry.
When I reduce the file sizes I will post some of the pics I took - other than the ones above.