VOC hanger advice

kai · 19th November 2021, 02:55 PM

Being overwhelmingly utilized in colonial settings and the VOC disbanded over 200 years ago, it stands to reason that many survivors crop up locally as recycled blades.

In addition, there are also a lot of spurious "VOC" marks on indigenous blades to be found. And downright later fakes in the European setting.

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 20th November 2021, 06:09 PM

I think Rick and kai have each (gently) raised the issue of whether the VOC and A stamps on this blade may have been added at a later time. The 1790 date stamp would indicate that it was made late in the existence of the VOC, a mere 10 years before it was dismantled and replaced by the Dutch government.

Looking at other examples posted in this forum of VOC blades made in Amsterdam, I would add that the stamped majuscule "A "found on this blade is of a form not shown on other VOC Amsterdam blades of a similar period. On the example shown here, the A has a straight cross piece, whereas on the examples shown in the link to other Amsterdam swords the A has a two-part cross piece that is angled ("v"). (This letter has a specific name that I don't recall but was in use throughout the period of the VOC as best I know.) This feature was mentioned here by Jim.

I agree with kai's sentiment that the date, VOC, and A stamps could have been added after manufacture, albeit many years ago.

cel7 · 21st November 2021, 06:41 AM

Thank you for your input. I don't completely agree because from the thread below (no. 55) by maurice, a similar "A" can be seen on a blade with provenance.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=18159&page=2

kai · 21st November 2021, 06:53 PM

Direct link to Maurice's post #55: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=55
An another pertinent one (#44): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=44

There is substantial variability with these marks since they apparently did not got struck in any consistent manner (possibly by each chamber before entering them into service - maybe only if deemed really needed); many VOC employees did bring their own weapons though.

Museums are well-known to have fakes and other non-genuine pieces in their collections. Like with any other collections, we'd have to carefully establish any single piece being legit before relying on it. I believe VOC marks on blades is a research topic that still needs to be addressed in detail.

BTW, most ethnographic pieces did not enter collections before the late 19th c. - way too late to exclude any "rework" of wannabe VOC blades...

I can't give any definitive opinion on this piece without examining it in person (and likely not even then). Just keep in mind that collecting VOC blades is considered quite a quagmire.

Pending further research regarding the VOC mark, the importance to me would lay in the period blade with proper mounts (except for the replaced grip). Those are rare to begin with...

Regards,
Kai

David · 23rd November 2021, 04:58 PM

I have to join the skeptical crowd here on the authenticity of this mark. I suppose it is possible that the edges could have survived this well over all these years, but i must say that after taking a look at dozens of other examples this is the sharpest, deepest cut VOC mark that i have yet to see, even though this blade displays more corrosion than many of the blades i was looking at.
I am not put off by the A for Amsterdam not having the (v) as a cross line for the "A", but i do notice that the "C" of "Compagnie" looks almost identical to the "O", while on all the examples i have looked at there is a concerted effort to make the "C" look like the letter it is supposed to be. So it looks like it says VOO instead of VOC.
Even in years past i believe that people placed a certain high appraisal of VOC blades so this may not be a recent addition, but i suspect it may well have been added at a later date to increase the perceived esteem for this blade. Though i believe i can see some corrosion in the grooves of these marks i do not see the same level off corrosion i see on the surface of the blade.

cel7 · 23rd November 2021, 05:18 PM

I hadn't noticed that before, but you're right. The C is very similar to the O.
Thanks for your comment!

fernando · 23rd November 2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cel7

I hadn't noticed that before, but you're right. The C is very similar to the O...

As per post #6

.

20th November 2021, 06:09 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	I think Rick and kai have each (gently) raised the issue of whether the VOC and A stamps on this blade may have been added at a later time. The 1790 date stamp would indicate that it was made late in the existence of the VOC, a mere 10 years before it was dismantled and replaced by the Dutch government. Looking at other examples posted in this forum of VOC blades made in Amsterdam, I would add that the stamped majuscule "A "found on this blade is of a form not shown on other VOC Amsterdam blades of a similar period. On the example shown here, the A has a straight cross piece, whereas on the examples shown in the link to other Amsterdam swords the A has a two-part cross piece that is angled ("v"). (This letter has a specific name that I don't recall but was in use throughout the period of the VOC as best I know.) This feature was mentioned here by Jim. I agree with kai's sentiment that the date, VOC, and A stamps could have been added after manufacture, albeit many years ago. Last edited by Ian; 20th November 2021 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Added another link

19th November 2021, 02:55 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Being overwhelmingly utilized in colonial settings and the VOC disbanded over 200 years ago, it stands to reason that many survivors crop up locally as recycled blades. In addition, there are also a lot of spurious "VOC" marks on indigenous blades to be found. And downright later fakes in the European setting. Regards, Kai

21st November 2021, 06:41 AM	#3
cel7 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 157	Thank you for your input. I don't completely agree because from the thread below (no. 55) by maurice, a similar "A" can be seen on a blade with provenance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=18159&page=2

21st November 2021, 06:53 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Direct link to Maurice's post #55: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=55 An another pertinent one (#44): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=44 There is substantial variability with these marks since they apparently did not got struck in any consistent manner (possibly by each chamber before entering them into service - maybe only if deemed really needed); many VOC employees did bring their own weapons though. Museums are well-known to have fakes and other non-genuine pieces in their collections. Like with any other collections, we'd have to carefully establish any single piece being legit before relying on it. I believe VOC marks on blades is a research topic that still needs to be addressed in detail. BTW, most ethnographic pieces did not enter collections before the late 19th c. - way too late to exclude any "rework" of wannabe VOC blades... I can't give any definitive opinion on this piece without examining it in person (and likely not even then). Just keep in mind that collecting VOC blades is considered quite a quagmire. Pending further research regarding the VOC mark, the importance to me would lay in the period blade with proper mounts (except for the replaced grip). Those are rare to begin with... Regards, Kai

23rd November 2021, 04:58 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I have to join the skeptical crowd here on the authenticity of this mark. I suppose it is possible that the edges could have survived this well over all these years, but i must say that after taking a look at dozens of other examples this is the sharpest, deepest cut VOC mark that i have yet to see, even though this blade displays more corrosion than many of the blades i was looking at. I am not put off by the A for Amsterdam not having the (v) as a cross line for the "A", but i do notice that the "C" of "Compagnie" looks almost identical to the "O", while on all the examples i have looked at there is a concerted effort to make the "C" look like the letter it is supposed to be. So it looks like it says VOO instead of VOC. Even in years past i believe that people placed a certain high appraisal of VOC blades so this may not be a recent addition, but i suspect it may well have been added at a later date to increase the perceived esteem for this blade. Though i believe i can see some corrosion in the grooves of these marks i do not see the same level off corrosion i see on the surface of the blade.

23rd November 2021, 05:18 PM	#6
cel7 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 157	I hadn't noticed that before, but you're right. The C is very similar to the O. Thanks for your comment!