Da Dao Translation & Info Requested

koto · 12th November 2021, 03:56 PM

The inscriptions
第十八中國工農紅軍 = Chinese Troop of Industrial and Agriculture Red Army. The title the communist military forces called themselves.路軍 = The 18th Army, a title given by the Nationalist Government.

Suspicion
The inscriptions are suspecious - In formal occasions, the communist led army used the National Government title 國民革命軍第十八集團軍 The 18th National Revolutional Army Group. In most occasions, the Army called themselves The 8th Army 八路軍 and they were more willing to call themselves so. They didn't call themselves The 18th Army but The 8th Army. The two incriptions represented completely opposite political blocs. Now they show on the same saber.

Ren Ren · 12th November 2021, 04:34 PM

Bravo, koto!
I give you a standing ovation!
This is a great job!

RobT · 17th November 2021, 03:15 AM

Hi Ren Ren and koto,

Apologies for my tardy response to your efforts but I felt that I needed to research the matter further to clarify the inscriptions and to address koto's suspicions. I was greatly helped by a friend who understands Chinese characters and who did most of the "heavy lifting" for this project.

As you know, Chinese text is typically read in columns from the top down. In the past, multicolumn documents were frequently started with the rightmost column, with the column immediately to the left being the next to be read. Although there are no columns on the guard stampings, the right to left order is followed. This is why Ren Ren translated the number as 80 and koto translated it as 18.

The six character stamping is: 軍紅農工國中
Read right to left, the English translation is: 中國 (China [literally: Middle Kingdom]), 工 (Worker) , 農 (Peasant), 紅 (Red), 軍 Army
This agrees with koto's translation and Ren Ren's partial translation.

The five character stamping is: 軍師八十第
Read right to left, the English translation is: 第 (Ordinal prefix [for the number eighteen to make it eighteenth]), Eighteen (十八), Group (師), Army (軍)
koto translated the number correctly.

koto found it suspicious that the six character stamping refers to the Red (Communist) Army but the five character stamp uses the Nationalist 18th army name instead of the Communist 8th army name.
Wikipedia states that the formal name of the 8th army was "the 18th Group Army of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China" but the Communists preferred to call it the 8th Army. Wikipedia further states that "The Eighth Route army wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the flag of the Republic of China".
I don't at all find it suspicious that a Communist led army that wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the Nationalist flag would stamp an item with the Nationalist army name. This military struggle was a collaboration of two foes against a common enemy so compromises were undoubtedly made. It may very well have gone something like this, "you guys get your stamp on one side and we get our stamp on the other". After all, their preferences notwithstanding, the formal name that both sides agreed to was the 18th Group Army. Furthermore, it is very likely that the factories making these blades had workers that were members of both factions. Given all the above, finding stamps catering to both sides on the same blade doesn't seem at all implausible.

Sincerely,
RobT

koto · 20th November 2021, 08:38 AM

Probably wielded by a double agent - showing the 18th Army side when hanging with the Nationalists, Red Army Communists, and spinning like a top when both show!

RobT · 20th November 2021, 03:56 PM

koto,

You have taken the term "spin doctoring" to a whole new level and, all kidding aside, your comment may have some serious merit. At the time, Western nations were not at all receptive to Communism (or even Socialism for that matter) so the Chinese Communists may well have felt that it would be more politically correct to downplay their ideology until the Japanese were driven out of China. Appearing openly as the "Red Menace" wouldn't fly well with the "Free World" which was fully united against the threat that Japanese imperialism posed to Western territorial/colonial holdings in Asia/Pacific and at the same time, also very nervous about any future "Yellow Menace" that could arise to threaten those Asia/Pacific holdings. I can imagine that the Chinese Communists considered it prudent to keep a low profile outside of China. This could also be the reason that the 8th Army wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the Nationalist flag.

Sincerely,
RobT

17th November 2021, 03:15 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	No Suspicions & Clarification Hi Ren Ren and koto, Apologies for my tardy response to your efforts but I felt that I needed to research the matter further to clarify the inscriptions and to address koto's suspicions. I was greatly helped by a friend who understands Chinese characters and who did most of the "heavy lifting" for this project. As you know, Chinese text is typically read in columns from the top down. In the past, multicolumn documents were frequently started with the rightmost column, with the column immediately to the left being the next to be read. Although there are no columns on the guard stampings, the right to left order is followed. This is why Ren Ren translated the number as 80 and koto translated it as 18. The six character stamping is: 軍紅農工國中 Read right to left, the English translation is: 中國 (China [literally: Middle Kingdom]), 工 (Worker) , 農 (Peasant), 紅 (Red), 軍 Army This agrees with koto's translation and Ren Ren's partial translation. The five character stamping is: 軍師八十第 Read right to left, the English translation is: 第 (Ordinal prefix [for the number eighteen to make it eighteenth]), Eighteen (十八), Group (師), Army (軍) koto translated the number correctly. koto found it suspicious that the six character stamping refers to the Red (Communist) Army but the five character stamp uses the Nationalist 18th army name instead of the Communist 8th army name. Wikipedia states that the formal name of the 8th army was "the 18th Group Army of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China" but the Communists preferred to call it the 8th Army. Wikipedia further states that "The Eighth Route army wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the flag of the Republic of China". I don't at all find it suspicious that a Communist led army that wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the Nationalist flag would stamp an item with the Nationalist army name. This military struggle was a collaboration of two foes against a common enemy so compromises were undoubtedly made. It may very well have gone something like this, "you guys get your stamp on one side and we get our stamp on the other". After all, their preferences notwithstanding, the formal name that both sides agreed to was the 18th Group Army. Furthermore, it is very likely that the factories making these blades had workers that were members of both factions. Given all the above, finding stamps catering to both sides on the same blade doesn't seem at all implausible. Sincerely, RobT

20th November 2021, 03:56 PM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 535	Downplaying Politics koto, You have taken the term "spin doctoring" to a whole new level and, all kidding aside, your comment may have some serious merit. At the time, Western nations were not at all receptive to Communism (or even Socialism for that matter) so the Chinese Communists may well have felt that it would be more politically correct to downplay their ideology until the Japanese were driven out of China. Appearing openly as the "Red Menace" wouldn't fly well with the "Free World" which was fully united against the threat that Japanese imperialism posed to Western territorial/colonial holdings in Asia/Pacific and at the same time, also very nervous about any future "Yellow Menace" that could arise to threaten those Asia/Pacific holdings. I can imagine that the Chinese Communists considered it prudent to keep a low profile outside of China. This could also be the reason that the 8th Army wore Nationalist uniforms and flew the Nationalist flag. Sincerely, RobT

12th November 2021, 03:56 PM	#1
koto Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 27	The inscriptions 第十八中國工農紅軍 = Chinese Troop of Industrial and Agriculture Red Army. The title the communist military forces called themselves.路軍 = The 18th Army, a title given by the Nationalist Government. Suspicion The inscriptions are suspecious - In formal occasions, the communist led army used the National Government title 國民革命軍第十八集團軍 The 18th National Revolutional Army Group. In most occasions, the Army called themselves The 8th Army 八路軍 and they were more willing to call themselves so. They didn't call themselves The 18th Army but The 8th Army. The two incriptions represented completely opposite political blocs. Now they show on the same saber.

12th November 2021, 04:34 PM	#2
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Bravo, koto! I give you a standing ovation! This is a great job!

20th November 2021, 08:38 AM	#4
koto Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 27	Probably wielded by a double agent - showing the 18th Army side when hanging with the Nationalists, Red Army Communists, and spinning like a top when both show!