A saber of unknown origin and age

toaster5sqn · 29th September 2021, 08:41 PM

I can't identify it but here are som observations that might help.

Pipe back blades were also used by other European countries, eg. the Prussians in the 1879 redesign of the M1852 Cavalry sabre. But the pipe back blade design originated in the middle east and was imported into Britain following the Egyptian campaign of the Napoleonic wars. It occurs on a few of the unofficial infantry sabres that proliferated prior to the adoption of the 1803 pattern.

Pipe back blades were common in the Ottoman empire but I agree the hilt styling looks very European.

British 3 bar hilts also had a smaller D ring on the thumb side which yours lacks.

The raised yelmen on the false edge is particularly long on your example, that may be a clue.

I have seen that 'ugly lion' referred to as a dogs head as lions weren't the only animal used for pommel decoration.

I'd agree that the scabbard is not the original one for that blade.

Robert

toaster5sqn · 29th September 2021, 08:47 PM

Just remembered that the officers model of the 1821 Light Cavalry pattern had a pipe back blade (troopers model had a fuller) and a 3 bar hilt, this hilt doesn't really fit the pattern but officers were known to deviate from it to suit their own taste so that would be where I would start looking.

What is the blade length, Infantry swords were around 31 - 32" while cavalry were 33 - 35" (in general of course individual officers still broke those rules).

Robert

Jim McDougall · 29th September 2021, 09:17 PM

Hi Robert,
Sorry to not have come in sooner. Im a bit surprised nobody has responded, but you have moved along pretty well with the research you've done.
The lion head was used on Continental swords as well, especially in Holland, which I thought this might be.
The flowing mane of course supports that it is a lion, not dog.

The three bar hilt was of course also quite well known on the Continent.
With the cartouche with name imbedded in the hilt, this is in my thought a very French affectation so need to look more into this.

Infantry did not carry swords except officers and sometimes the flank companies in some degree. Cavalry blades were typically 35-36" with the shorter blades of 29-33" usually officers sabers.

The blade form with raised yelman is termed 'quill point' and these were known on British swords in Napoleonic, but as you note, these became popular in Solingen blades after 1850s, which of course were supplied to Austria etc. as well as German states.

Possibly Wagner (1967) or some of the other references might have options. I will check later. Interesting sword!

29th September 2021, 08:41 PM	#1
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 74	I can't identify it but here are som observations that might help. Pipe back blades were also used by other European countries, eg. the Prussians in the 1879 redesign of the M1852 Cavalry sabre. But the pipe back blade design originated in the middle east and was imported into Britain following the Egyptian campaign of the Napoleonic wars. It occurs on a few of the unofficial infantry sabres that proliferated prior to the adoption of the 1803 pattern. Pipe back blades were common in the Ottoman empire but I agree the hilt styling looks very European. British 3 bar hilts also had a smaller D ring on the thumb side which yours lacks. The raised yelmen on the false edge is particularly long on your example, that may be a clue. I have seen that 'ugly lion' referred to as a dogs head as lions weren't the only animal used for pommel decoration. I'd agree that the scabbard is not the original one for that blade. Robert

29th September 2021, 08:47 PM	#2
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 74	Just remembered that the officers model of the 1821 Light Cavalry pattern had a pipe back blade (troopers model had a fuller) and a 3 bar hilt, this hilt doesn't really fit the pattern but officers were known to deviate from it to suit their own taste so that would be where I would start looking. What is the blade length, Infantry swords were around 31 - 32" while cavalry were 33 - 35" (in general of course individual officers still broke those rules). Robert

29th September 2021, 09:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Hi Robert, Sorry to not have come in sooner. Im a bit surprised nobody has responded, but you have moved along pretty well with the research you've done. The lion head was used on Continental swords as well, especially in Holland, which I thought this might be. The flowing mane of course supports that it is a lion, not dog. The three bar hilt was of course also quite well known on the Continent. With the cartouche with name imbedded in the hilt, this is in my thought a very French affectation so need to look more into this. Infantry did not carry swords except officers and sometimes the flank companies in some degree. Cavalry blades were typically 35-36" with the shorter blades of 29-33" usually officers sabers. The blade form with raised yelman is termed 'quill point' and these were known on British swords in Napoleonic, but as you note, these became popular in Solingen blades after 1850s, which of course were supplied to Austria etc. as well as German states. Possibly Wagner (1967) or some of the other references might have options. I will check later. Interesting sword!