Academic research: musings

A. G. Maisey · 27th September 2021, 01:07 AM

About the keris Ariel.

I am not averse to teaching, and I have given face to face information & explanation to a few people, but there are problems.

Most of the people who have sought knowledge from me have been trying to come to terms with the Javanese (or Solonese) system of classification that is known as tangguh, but to even get get a very basic understanding of this, how to use it, and what it means, really takes years and probably access to thousands of keris in the company of people who know more than you know yourself. I'll hold back on calling all these people "teachers" or "masters", in my case a couple have been true masters, but most have just been people who knew more than I did about some things.

Before one even begins to think about understanding tangguh one needs to build a solid understanding of the Javanese world view and Javanese values.

A couple of weeks of face to face is not even scratching the surface, and I cannot see how it can be done from printed material.

So teach? Sure, but teach what? Basic technical aspects have already been addressed, classification of patterns, forms, names have been addressed exhaustively. We do not need another book of pretty pictures & misguided ideas.

I have touched on some of the more arcane elements of keris belief in some of the things I've written, but nothing I've presented along these lines has drawn any sort of comment at all. Nobody seems to want to know --- or maybe they think that Maisey has spun out & is off in La-La Land.

Most of keris knowledge is keris belief, so keris knowledge comes down to knowledge of belief systems, but that knowledge does not necessarily translate to understanding, and understanding can only come from understanding of cultural & societal mores. This begins with the language of those societies.

Is the usual collector of keris, or of anything for that matter, prepared to go and learn a couple of languages and then put in a few years gaining knowledge of a culture & society, before beginning to focus on the things he is interested in collecting or studying? I do not believe so.

Teach? Teach what to whom?

Probably the best I can offer is to answer questions, but most people don't even know the right questions to ask.

ariel · 27th September 2021, 03:29 PM

Sad state of affairs...
Sorry to hear that.

Ian · 28th September 2021, 08:16 AM

Quote:

...Is the usual collector of keris, or of anything for that matter, prepared to go and learn a couple of languages and then put in a few years gaining knowledge of a culture & society, before beginning to focus on the things he is interested in collecting or studying?...

Alan,

I think this is what dedicated anthropologists and archeologists do. The noted anthropologist, Philip Cole, took himself and his wife to the northern Philippines to live among the Tiguan for many months to study their culture (alas, not so much about their weapons), having first learned their language and customs during earlier visits. Margaret Mead is well known for her ethnological studies in Samoa and other Pacific islands, where she too immersed herself for several years in local societies. There are probably many other examples of like-minded professionals who dedicated themselves to studying societies elsewhere, and took the time to learn languages, embed themselves in the culture, and produce excellent accounts of their findings. Unfortunately for us, there are few such studies of weapons upon which we can draw.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2021, 12:46 PM

Yes Ian, I know this.

I understood that this was really the only way to go after my first visit to Jawa, 50 or so years ago, but before that I had already been studying the cultures and societies of SE Asia from the age of 14.

My core interest is not weaponry, either the keris as a weapon, or any other Javanese or SE Asian weapons. My overwhelming focus is the place of the keris within Javanese & Balinese society & culture.

The things that are of primary interest to the vast bulk of collectors are now only fringe interests to me. Going back 50 & more years these "collector's interests" did occupy most of my attention to the keris, but I left that aspect behind many years ago.

Of course it is possible to be a pure collector, but I feel now that collection, in the absence of deep understanding, is just an empty shell, and any understanding at all is just not possible unless the foundations of cultural, societal and language have already been put in place.

ariel · 28th September 2021, 02:42 PM

Many of us switch areas of interest.
Most of the “more or less serious ones” dig deeper into cultural and societal issues, but the majority cannot go and live among the natives. Most in general spend time studying history: without it putting things in context is impossible. Poor historiography betrays itself right away and is a death gasp of any reputation.
Language wise, we rely upon professionals: I used to consult with my colleagues and friends, native speakers. Regretfully, many times they could not decipher old grammar and/or writing style.
Kwiatek was a Godsend.
In my guess, retooling one’s skills from one area of interest to another takes somewhere between a year or two.

But then, who said that the purpose of collection should be a particular ethnicity? Why not mutants of different styles? Repurposed weapons? Symbolics? Religious undertones? Decoration techniques? Metallurgy?
There are as many collections as collectors.

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2021, 01:01 AM

All this is true Ariel, but for my area of interest history is only one aspect, and it is not particularly reliable for the areas I have an interest in. Much of the so-called "history" for Jawa, Bali, & Indonesia in general is not a true reflection of reality.

I do believe that it is necessary to get a really good understanding of society, and this should ideally include grass roots & a couple of levels above that, so rural village, urban poor, educated middle class, elites. I have been very fortunate in that I have been able to associate closely with people from all these levels of society over a forty year period.

With language I am also fortunate, because every day I use Javanese (ngoko), Bahasa Indonesia, and a couple of Javanese dialects. This use is not artificial, without it I would go hungry.

Living in Jawa/Bali society has been something I have been able to do for around 3 months every year since 1982.

Collection as such can encompass many variations, it is only when pure collection moves past the physical object that the deeper understandings become necessary.

ariel · 29th September 2021, 06:01 AM

Re. Your last sentence: good collectors are all doing the same. Only some of them use historical aspects whereas you look at the transcendental.

27th September 2021, 01:07 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	About the keris Ariel. I am not averse to teaching, and I have given face to face information & explanation to a few people, but there are problems. Most of the people who have sought knowledge from me have been trying to come to terms with the Javanese (or Solonese) system of classification that is known as tangguh, but to even get get a very basic understanding of this, how to use it, and what it means, really takes years and probably access to thousands of keris in the company of people who know more than you know yourself. I'll hold back on calling all these people "teachers" or "masters", in my case a couple have been true masters, but most have just been people who knew more than I did about some things. Before one even begins to think about understanding tangguh one needs to build a solid understanding of the Javanese world view and Javanese values. A couple of weeks of face to face is not even scratching the surface, and I cannot see how it can be done from printed material. So teach? Sure, but teach what? Basic technical aspects have already been addressed, classification of patterns, forms, names have been addressed exhaustively. We do not need another book of pretty pictures & misguided ideas. I have touched on some of the more arcane elements of keris belief in some of the things I've written, but nothing I've presented along these lines has drawn any sort of comment at all. Nobody seems to want to know --- or maybe they think that Maisey has spun out & is off in La-La Land. Most of keris knowledge is keris belief, so keris knowledge comes down to knowledge of belief systems, but that knowledge does not necessarily translate to understanding, and understanding can only come from understanding of cultural & societal mores. This begins with the language of those societies. Is the usual collector of keris, or of anything for that matter, prepared to go and learn a couple of languages and then put in a few years gaining knowledge of a culture & society, before beginning to focus on the things he is interested in collecting or studying? I do not believe so. Teach? Teach what to whom? Probably the best I can offer is to answer questions, but most people don't even know the right questions to ask.

27th September 2021, 03:29 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sad state of affairs... Sorry to hear that.

28th September 2021, 12:46 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Ian, I know this. I understood that this was really the only way to go after my first visit to Jawa, 50 or so years ago, but before that I had already been studying the cultures and societies of SE Asia from the age of 14. My core interest is not weaponry, either the keris as a weapon, or any other Javanese or SE Asian weapons. My overwhelming focus is the place of the keris within Javanese & Balinese society & culture. The things that are of primary interest to the vast bulk of collectors are now only fringe interests to me. Going back 50 & more years these "collector's interests" did occupy most of my attention to the keris, but I left that aspect behind many years ago. Of course it is possible to be a pure collector, but I feel now that collection, in the absence of deep understanding, is just an empty shell, and any understanding at all is just not possible unless the foundations of cultural, societal and language have already been put in place.

28th September 2021, 02:42 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Many of us switch areas of interest. Most of the “more or less serious ones” dig deeper into cultural and societal issues, but the majority cannot go and live among the natives. Most in general spend time studying history: without it putting things in context is impossible. Poor historiography betrays itself right away and is a death gasp of any reputation. Language wise, we rely upon professionals: I used to consult with my colleagues and friends, native speakers. Regretfully, many times they could not decipher old grammar and/or writing style. Kwiatek was a Godsend. In my guess, retooling one’s skills from one area of interest to another takes somewhere between a year or two. But then, who said that the purpose of collection should be a particular ethnicity? Why not mutants of different styles? Repurposed weapons? Symbolics? Religious undertones? Decoration techniques? Metallurgy? There are as many collections as collectors.

29th September 2021, 01:01 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	All this is true Ariel, but for my area of interest history is only one aspect, and it is not particularly reliable for the areas I have an interest in. Much of the so-called "history" for Jawa, Bali, & Indonesia in general is not a true reflection of reality. I do believe that it is necessary to get a really good understanding of society, and this should ideally include grass roots & a couple of levels above that, so rural village, urban poor, educated middle class, elites. I have been very fortunate in that I have been able to associate closely with people from all these levels of society over a forty year period. With language I am also fortunate, because every day I use Javanese (ngoko), Bahasa Indonesia, and a couple of Javanese dialects. This use is not artificial, without it I would go hungry. Living in Jawa/Bali society has been something I have been able to do for around 3 months every year since 1982. Collection as such can encompass many variations, it is only when pure collection moves past the physical object that the deeper understandings become necessary.

29th September 2021, 06:01 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re. Your last sentence: good collectors are all doing the same. Only some of them use historical aspects whereas you look at the transcendental.