Academic research: musings

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2021, 11:59 PM

All this from a simple query asking for images of an Indian warrior wearing a khanjharli dagger, and an accompanying photo with a Sikh said to be with one.

Personally, while i do not have formal education training in procedures and methodology in systemic research...I just enjoy study, and learning from my own style of research. With this it is quite comfortable and rewarding and I enjoy the discussions being the same.........though my writing is typically a bit heavy and detailed. Most of that is simply because it is my way of compiling often notable time in research.

I dont think a private venue/forum needs to follow the strict regimens of academia to be useful and advance our collective knowledge on weapons in forms and history. We all have different perspectives in our interests in arms & armor.

While I admire the disciplines and achievements involved in academic pursuits and the structured scholarship, and all of those here who have accomplished notable credentials and experience.......I also enjoy just 'talking weapon study and history'.

In answering the question in the original thread, there were no protocols or structured methods followed...simple 'cerca trova'

.
In the interpretation of this as I have understood....'seek and ye shall find'.

Edster · 26th September 2021, 02:19 AM

Thanks Jim, excellent counterpoint. I, too, enjoy the entertainment quality of good reasoned debate. However, as an example, I would also like to know the objective differences between a German made 19th C. munitions grade trade blade and those made in Kassala in the early & mid 20th C. Without makers marks most look the same to me.

Best regards,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2021, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Thanks Jim, excellent counterpoint. I, too, enjoy the entertainment quality of good reasoned debate. However, as an example, I would also like to know the objective differences between a German made 19th C. munitions grade trade blade and those made in Kassala in the early & mid 20th C. Without makers marks most look the same to me.

Best regards,
Ed

Thanks Ed,
Actually when I began writing on these forums over 20 years ago, Mostly I just wanted to learn from other guys involved in studying the same weapons I was interested in. I have never cared especially for debate, but in sharing information and observations with examples and evidence.

I always appreciate when an example or observation is shared and when contrary views are shown, with explanations and details. Rather than debate these are discussions evaluating information at hand and constructively compiling material to advance the collective knowledge of all reading.

Great example on those Sudanese blades, I am always baffled at trying to evaluate them without markings as well. We often presume a blade must be European , but these guys in Kassala were pretty good.

ariel · 26th September 2021, 04:58 AM

Alan,
But of course! I thought I was pretty clear on it. 95% of all posts have nothing to do with real research: they are just a way to get straightforward information, to learn.
Re-search is " to seek anew", to start with uncertainty or doubt about current state of affairs in a particular area and subject the reality to additional tests ( experimental or purely mental, no difference) to either modify or confirm the existing state of knowledge.

Fora by and large are just social interactions to learn something known to others. How often do we see here really structured "research" topic, systematizing a particular field in a novel way? Once a year? The rest of the time we just learn from each other, and this is wonderful! Nothing wrong with it: that what all students do from the first grade to let's say masters degree. Only then they start addressing novel problems and re-searching. But those early years prepare at least some of them for a PhD level of thinking. I am pretty good in my field, but in my wildest dreams I cannot compare myself to specially educated David Alexander, Don LaRocca and Robert Elgood and even to such a "non-university" person as Robert Hales, who had learned so much by the sheer volume of personal experience combined with first class brain that he can teach us ( me, at least) more than a bunch of professors.

To recap: yes, "..... in this Forum, is it acceptable for random, unstructured ideas, observations & comments to form a basis for discussion". It prepares us to go one step further, to ask a really unexpected question, to develop a hypothesis.

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2021, 08:56 AM

Thank you Ariel,

I actually asked a couple of questions, I'm guessing you have answered "of course" to both of these questions. So I assume you mean that the relaxed approach is fine where no actual research has been done, but where research has been done, this research should have been done in a systematic manner? Is my understanding of your response correct?

Ariel, I do not want to introduce any new unrelated discussion to this thread, but I was under the impression that we were talking about research, not re-search.

The word "research" comes from Old French, and the "re" in this case does not mean "again" it indicates the use of a great degree of force, the root is probably "cercher". This is as I remember, I'm not good on French, and I only recall little interesting bits & pieces here and there. I guess "cercher", or maybe "cerchier" might have come from the Latin --- "re" was originally used with words from the Latin. But in any case, when the intensifier "re" is added to "cercher" we have a word that means to seek for something with extreme dedication, & thus "research". I'm running on 60 odd year old memories here, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Is "re-search" in fact an English word, or English usage? I don't think I've ever come across it.

Anyway, no matter about words, I think that in broad terms you & I have a similar take on the nature of this Forum.

ariel · 26th September 2021, 12:36 PM

Alan,
Glad we finally came to full understanding.
My French sucks. But English, in its meticulously- precise way, gives “ re” an interesting twist. Linguistically it is likely incorrect, but it raises the meaning couple of notches up.
This was not my invention: I have seen it in several classy publications and liked it immensely.

Thanks for your comments and questions.They were very useful for clarifying what I wanted to say. Your critique made my position more understandable. Socratic method still rules! :-)

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2021, 01:30 PM

I think English would be a swine of a language to learn.I'm glad I was born as a native speaker.

But it is I think a very marvelous language, a wonderful tool for communication. I am familiar with a few languages, none of the other languages I have met seem to permit the same universal precision as does English.

As to the invention of words, well it was good enough for Bill Shakespeare. Perhaps some of our personally invented words help us to remember or realise things that we otherwise would not.

But "re" is not uniquely English, it comes from early Latin and originally it meant "back" or "backwards", it now occurs in languages other than English, and in English it has a broad range of meanings. In English its attachment seems to be almost infinite.

25th September 2021, 11:59 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	All this from a simple query asking for images of an Indian warrior wearing a khanjharli dagger, and an accompanying photo with a Sikh said to be with one. Personally, while i do not have formal education training in procedures and methodology in systemic research...I just enjoy study, and learning from my own style of research. With this it is quite comfortable and rewarding and I enjoy the discussions being the same.........though my writing is typically a bit heavy and detailed. Most of that is simply because it is my way of compiling often notable time in research. I dont think a private venue/forum needs to follow the strict regimens of academia to be useful and advance our collective knowledge on weapons in forms and history. We all have different perspectives in our interests in arms & armor. While I admire the disciplines and achievements involved in academic pursuits and the structured scholarship, and all of those here who have accomplished notable credentials and experience.......I also enjoy just 'talking weapon study and history'. In answering the question in the original thread, there were no protocols or structured methods followed...simple 'cerca trova' . In the interpretation of this as I have understood....'seek and ye shall find'.

26th September 2021, 02:19 AM	#2
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Thanks Jim, excellent counterpoint. I, too, enjoy the entertainment quality of good reasoned debate. However, as an example, I would also like to know the objective differences between a German made 19th C. munitions grade trade blade and those made in Kassala in the early & mid 20th C. Without makers marks most look the same to me. Best regards, Ed

26th September 2021, 04:58 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, But of course! I thought I was pretty clear on it. 95% of all posts have nothing to do with real research: they are just a way to get straightforward information, to learn. Re-search is " to seek anew", to start with uncertainty or doubt about current state of affairs in a particular area and subject the reality to additional tests ( experimental or purely mental, no difference) to either modify or confirm the existing state of knowledge. Fora by and large are just social interactions to learn something known to others. How often do we see here really structured "research" topic, systematizing a particular field in a novel way? Once a year? The rest of the time we just learn from each other, and this is wonderful! Nothing wrong with it: that what all students do from the first grade to let's say masters degree. Only then they start addressing novel problems and re-searching. But those early years prepare at least some of them for a PhD level of thinking. I am pretty good in my field, but in my wildest dreams I cannot compare myself to specially educated David Alexander, Don LaRocca and Robert Elgood and even to such a "non-university" person as Robert Hales, who had learned so much by the sheer volume of personal experience combined with first class brain that he can teach us ( me, at least) more than a bunch of professors. To recap: yes, "..... in this Forum, is it acceptable for random, unstructured ideas, observations & comments to form a basis for discussion". It prepares us to go one step further, to ask a really unexpected question, to develop a hypothesis.

26th September 2021, 08:56 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Ariel, I actually asked a couple of questions, I'm guessing you have answered "of course" to both of these questions. So I assume you mean that the relaxed approach is fine where no actual research has been done, but where research has been done, this research should have been done in a systematic manner? Is my understanding of your response correct? Ariel, I do not want to introduce any new unrelated discussion to this thread, but I was under the impression that we were talking about research, not re-search. The word "research" comes from Old French, and the "re" in this case does not mean "again" it indicates the use of a great degree of force, the root is probably "cercher". This is as I remember, I'm not good on French, and I only recall little interesting bits & pieces here and there. I guess "cercher", or maybe "cerchier" might have come from the Latin --- "re" was originally used with words from the Latin. But in any case, when the intensifier "re" is added to "cercher" we have a word that means to seek for something with extreme dedication, & thus "research". I'm running on 60 odd year old memories here, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Is "re-search" in fact an English word, or English usage? I don't think I've ever come across it. Anyway, no matter about words, I think that in broad terms you & I have a similar take on the nature of this Forum.

26th September 2021, 12:36 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, Glad we finally came to full understanding. My French sucks. But English, in its meticulously- precise way, gives “ re” an interesting twist. Linguistically it is likely incorrect, but it raises the meaning couple of notches up. This was not my invention: I have seen it in several classy publications and liked it immensely. Thanks for your comments and questions.They were very useful for clarifying what I wanted to say. Your critique made my position more understandable. Socratic method still rules! :-)

26th September 2021, 01:30 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I think English would be a swine of a language to learn.I'm glad I was born as a native speaker. But it is I think a very marvelous language, a wonderful tool for communication. I am familiar with a few languages, none of the other languages I have met seem to permit the same universal precision as does English. As to the invention of words, well it was good enough for Bill Shakespeare. Perhaps some of our personally invented words help us to remember or realise things that we otherwise would not. But "re" is not uniquely English, it comes from early Latin and originally it meant "back" or "backwards", it now occurs in languages other than English, and in English it has a broad range of meanings. In English its attachment seems to be almost infinite.