Is there a manual for yatagans?

Zifir · 5th June 2006, 12:00 AM

ariel,
I am not really sure if janissaries were able to carry regular yatagans outside their barracks. Actually, in one of my first posts in this forum, I asked a similar question:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157

I belive they were only allowed to carry yatagan knives, legally at least. But I might be mistaken also.

I agree that yatagan was the favorite weapon of brigands, rebels and so on. But are not there many other examples of yatagans, decorated with precious gems, and were products of fine craftsmanship. I bet these were not produced for people with limited means or brigands (as long as they did not persuade the real owners to communalize them, of course

)

And for the unruly character of janissaries, well.., I can dispute against that for hours

ariel · 5th June 2006, 01:50 AM

I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested.
Are you now?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072
I think this is a fantastic story !!!!
But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

Emanuel · 5th June 2006, 04:27 AM

Hello,
I have stumbled upon a little book on Romanian history/culture, and in its "16th century" chapter there is an old print of "Ottoman Dignitaries" in full courtly dress wearing yataghan. If courtiers wore such a weapon, wouldn't it be plausible that they were instructed in some standard martial art to use it effectively and gracefully -like western fencing? I will scan and post the print tomorrow.
If the yataghan was considered a knife/short-sword, was it ever used in conjunction with the kilic or other bladed weapons?

Emanuel

Emanuel · 5th June 2006, 04:36 AM

Hello Ariel,
The question of the oldest yataghan has been bugging me since you posted that old example. If the earliest yataghan dates from 1526/27 or even 1460/61, how were janissaries equipped prior to the introduction of this weapon? Did they use kilic?

Regards,
Emanuel

Zifir · 5th June 2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested.
Are you now?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072
I think this is a fantastic story !!!!
But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

This is indeed a very interesting piece of information. In fact, Selim I was said to order forced migration of one thousand artisans from Tabriz to Istanbul after its conquest. The reference to the Tekelu tribe is very interesting. I am not sure if there is any connection but there is another name used for yatagans in turkish: 'Varsak'; which is also the name of the one of the Kizilbash tribes which constituted Shah Ismail's federation.

Emanuel · 10th June 2006, 02:56 AM

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

ariel · 11th June 2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

Are you sure these are 16th century?
I am dubious: there were not many European travellers to Turkey at that time and the style of drawing is more like 18th-19th centuries. Where is it from?

Emanuel · 12th June 2006, 03:50 AM

I had the same thought, these drawings could very well be 19th century, and the book does not provide any reference or detail about it except the caption. I will look for books on Ottoman court dress and costumes and see if the image can be corroborated.

Zifir · 12th June 2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash.

Emanuel

Manolo,
These look like janissaries. As Ariel and you suggested there might be also some confusion about dating. (These much look like the 18th and the early 19th century dresses to me)

For the first one on the left I am not sure. But the second one on the left is a serdengecti ( janissary volunteer), the third one is a karakollukcu (a janissary orderly) and the last one is a harbeci (janissary guardsman).

Emanuel · 13th June 2006, 12:41 AM

Hello Zifir,
Thanks for identifying the ranks and dress! I have just started reading about janissaries and they're quite fascinating. I've seen and handled two yataghan this week and now I really want one, many in fact.

Just to clarify one thing: the famous janissary scimitars idealised by Europeans were in fact kilic right?

If these drawings show 18th-19th century dress, are there any records that show earlier costumes?
Emanuel

Zifir · 13th June 2006, 06:29 AM

Kılıç is the exact equivalent of the word 'sword' in Turkish. In that sense, it is a generic word. You can call both a 19th century saber and a 15th century scimitar as kılıçs and gramatically there won't be any mistake in that

Same is true for the word shamsir. In the ottoman context, the only difference is probably while common people called a sword as kılıç, the elite prefered the arabic word shamsir. Within this general category of shamsir/kılıç there are many variations.

There are many experts in ottoman arms here, which i am not, and I think they can better explain the differences in detail.

For the earlier examples of the dress, there are many miniatures and drawings. To give you one example, this is a sketch by Gentile Bellini or by one of his associates. The man in the sketch was probably a member of janissary cavalry (sipahi) of the 15th century.

10th June 2006, 02:56 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Scans Took a while, but here are the scans I mentioned of Ottoman dignitaries from the 16th century wearing yataghan in their sash. Emanuel Attached Images

13th June 2006, 06:29 AM	#11
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	Kılıç is the exact equivalent of the word 'sword' in Turkish. In that sense, it is a generic word. You can call both a 19th century saber and a 15th century scimitar as kılıçs and gramatically there won't be any mistake in that Same is true for the word shamsir. In the ottoman context, the only difference is probably while common people called a sword as kılıç, the elite prefered the arabic word shamsir. Within this general category of shamsir/kılıç there are many variations. There are many experts in ottoman arms here, which i am not, and I think they can better explain the differences in detail. For the earlier examples of the dress, there are many miniatures and drawings. To give you one example, this is a sketch by Gentile Bellini or by one of his associates. The man in the sketch was probably a member of janissary cavalry (sipahi) of the 15th century. Attached Images

5th June 2006, 12:00 AM	#1
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	ariel, I am not really sure if janissaries were able to carry regular yatagans outside their barracks. Actually, in one of my first posts in this forum, I asked a similar question: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2157 I belive they were only allowed to carry yatagan knives, legally at least. But I might be mistaken also. I agree that yatagan was the favorite weapon of brigands, rebels and so on. But are not there many other examples of yatagans, decorated with precious gems, and were products of fine craftsmanship. I bet these were not produced for people with limited means or brigands (as long as they did not persuade the real owners to communalize them, of course ) And for the unruly character of janissaries, well.., I can dispute against that for hours

5th June 2006, 01:50 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I once posted a thread here and nobody was interested. Are you now? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2072 I think this is a fantastic story !!!! But, perhaps, I am overenthusiastic..... decide for yourself.

5th June 2006, 04:27 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I have stumbled upon a little book on Romanian history/culture, and in its "16th century" chapter there is an old print of "Ottoman Dignitaries" in full courtly dress wearing yataghan. If courtiers wore such a weapon, wouldn't it be plausible that they were instructed in some standard martial art to use it effectively and gracefully -like western fencing? I will scan and post the print tomorrow. If the yataghan was considered a knife/short-sword, was it ever used in conjunction with the kilic or other bladed weapons? Emanuel

5th June 2006, 04:36 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Ariel, The question of the oldest yataghan has been bugging me since you posted that old example. If the earliest yataghan dates from 1526/27 or even 1460/61, how were janissaries equipped prior to the introduction of this weapon? Did they use kilic? Regards, Emanuel

12th June 2006, 03:50 AM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I had the same thought, these drawings could very well be 19th century, and the book does not provide any reference or detail about it except the caption. I will look for books on Ottoman court dress and costumes and see if the image can be corroborated.

13th June 2006, 12:41 AM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Zifir, Thanks for identifying the ranks and dress! I have just started reading about janissaries and they're quite fascinating. I've seen and handled two yataghan this week and now I really want one, many in fact. Just to clarify one thing: the famous janissary scimitars idealised by Europeans were in fact kilic right? If these drawings show 18th-19th century dress, are there any records that show earlier costumes? Emanuel