Keris Minangkabau by

Marcokeris · 31st August 2021, 01:04 PM

I red the book or...(perhaps is better!

) I saw this book (I don't know Bahasa). IMO it's a good book full of nice pics of nice keris and hilts....and the price of the book is very good (not expensive)

Jean · 3rd September 2021, 06:06 PM

I did not buy the book when it was published because the main author is Javanese and very prolific, and the second one is a rich collector & politician but maybe I was wrong and I will buy it if I can find an opportunity as the books about Sumatrese krisses are very scarce and I like them very much.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2021, 11:39 PM

My reasons were similar Jean.

I have never met the Javanese gentleman concerned, but I did know one of his teachers very well, and that combined with information from various other sources has caused me to form my own opinions.

I have read more than a little of the Javanese gentleman's writing, and he is a good --- no, a very good --- writer. But regrettably his writing does not say very much. He is a clever businessman, and a brilliant promoter. Altogether, a first class example of the 21st century man. I admire his initiative and I can only wish him every success.

But his approach to keris culture differs quite a lot from my own. I have limited time in which to address those things that interest me, this means I have virtually no time to address those things that do not interest me, and the contents of this book are of very little interest to me.

The co-author of this book is of Minangkabau ethnicity and is a very prominent Indonesian elite. Well educated, very talented, an accomplished writer, an outstanding example of the cultured elite class of modern Indonesia.

I perused this book, I did not buy it because it really had nothing to offer me. I really do not need another book full of pictures.

Green · 4th September 2021, 03:30 PM

my "philosophy " is different. One of the best ways to understand a subject is to see as many as possible good examples of the subject. Be they paintings, ceramics, keris etc. And for beginners, this book is a good start to see what 'good' sumatran keris look like. I have this book, have not read it but love the pictures!

Jean · 4th September 2021, 06:32 PM

I own one kris book titled "Keris Mayakarya Nusantara" which includes about 15 krisses from the collection of the co-author, and most of them have old blades but are matched with recent & bling-bling scabbards and hilts. Also some of the blades are probably of Javanese origin but attributed to Minangkabau...

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2021, 10:15 PM

Green, I don't believe that our philosophies vary all that much, but it seems certain that our areas of interest do vary.

I have been handling keris since before I went to school, so probably from about age 4 or so, I have owned keris since I was 12, I started to buy keris before I was 16.

By the age of thirty I had over 2000 keris. These were not all complete, perfect keris, they were keris blades, some were complete keris, many were damaged. I also had a lot of sundry S.E. Asian bladed tools and weapons. In total I had something approaching 3000 objects.

I sold most of these things beginning before 1974, and by 1983 I had only the collection from my grandfather, and perhaps 30 or 40 other items, most were keris.

In 1982 Empu Suparman began to teach me, and from that time I had a whole new perspective on the study of keris.

From 1974 through to 2015 I was spending 2 or 3 months every year in Indonesia and most of that time was spent in Solo.During every visit to Indonesia I went out of my way to look at and handle keris. I would estimate that during each visit I never saw less than one to two thousand keris, and most of these I handled.

I do believe that one of the things that is essential to keris study is to see & handle as many keris as possible.

However, over the time I've been involved with keris I have found that I cannot learn very much by looking at pictures, I need to see the actual keris and preferably handle it.

Link this attitude to the fact that I have a very narrow field of focus these days, and that focus is almost exclusively Jawa & Bali, and you will understand why I have very little interest in a book with a lot of nice pictures and (in my opinion) fairly light weight text.

Jean, it is an element of keris culture in Jawa & Bali, most especially in Jawa, that the scabbard & hilt of a keris is changed relatively often. A fine old keris is considered to deserve the best dress that its custodian can afford to give it. Inherited keris often need to have dress changed to reflect the status of the custodian, a keris that is in the custody of a member of karaton hierarchy will very likely have its dress changed every time the custodian achieves a new rank. During the life time of a single person the one keris can well have a number of changes of dress.

It is only collectors who use Eurocentric standards who value old keris in old dress. For some Javanese nobles such a situation would be at the least, an embarrassment.

I can very easily understand why many noted Indonesian collectors dress their keris in new, bling-bling scabbard & hilt. As Pak Parman said to me, old keris dress is just like an old suit of clothes, when it becomes shabby or out of style, you get rid of it, only the gold, silver and precious stones have any value.

Jean · 5th September 2021, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can very easily understand why many noted Indonesian collectors dress their keris in new, bling-bling scabbard & hilt.

Hello Alan,
I have nothing against this javanese tradition of replacing an old dress for prestige reasons provided that the blade and dress are of compatible origin, e.g. a javanese blade in a javanese or even madurese scabbard is acceptable to me, but not a sumatrese scabbard & hilt.
I remember a regretted Yogya kris dealer (Suryono) who got more than 100 kris scabbards in good condition for peanuts because a rich Indonesian collector wanted to replace them by more "precious" ones.
And I am not ashamed of my Eurocentric position (preference for well-matching blade & dress) which is in line with the philosophy of antiques collectors and museums in Europe.
Regards

4th September 2021, 06:32 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I own one kris book titled "Keris Mayakarya Nusantara" which includes about 15 krisses from the collection of the co-author, and most of them have old blades but are matched with recent & bling-bling scabbards and hilts. Also some of the blades are probably of Javanese origin but attributed to Minangkabau... Last edited by Jean; 4th September 2021 at 06:45 PM.

31st August 2021, 01:04 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I red the book or...(perhaps is better! ) I saw this book (I don't know Bahasa). IMO it's a good book full of nice pics of nice keris and hilts....and the price of the book is very good (not expensive)

3rd September 2021, 06:06 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I did not buy the book when it was published because the main author is Javanese and very prolific, and the second one is a rich collector & politician but maybe I was wrong and I will buy it if I can find an opportunity as the books about Sumatrese krisses are very scarce and I like them very much.

3rd September 2021, 11:39 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	My reasons were similar Jean. I have never met the Javanese gentleman concerned, but I did know one of his teachers very well, and that combined with information from various other sources has caused me to form my own opinions. I have read more than a little of the Javanese gentleman's writing, and he is a good --- no, a very good --- writer. But regrettably his writing does not say very much. He is a clever businessman, and a brilliant promoter. Altogether, a first class example of the 21st century man. I admire his initiative and I can only wish him every success. But his approach to keris culture differs quite a lot from my own. I have limited time in which to address those things that interest me, this means I have virtually no time to address those things that do not interest me, and the contents of this book are of very little interest to me. The co-author of this book is of Minangkabau ethnicity and is a very prominent Indonesian elite. Well educated, very talented, an accomplished writer, an outstanding example of the cultured elite class of modern Indonesia. I perused this book, I did not buy it because it really had nothing to offer me. I really do not need another book full of pictures.

4th September 2021, 03:30 PM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	my "philosophy " is different. One of the best ways to understand a subject is to see as many as possible good examples of the subject. Be they paintings, ceramics, keris etc. And for beginners, this book is a good start to see what 'good' sumatran keris look like. I have this book, have not read it but love the pictures!

4th September 2021, 10:15 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Green, I don't believe that our philosophies vary all that much, but it seems certain that our areas of interest do vary. I have been handling keris since before I went to school, so probably from about age 4 or so, I have owned keris since I was 12, I started to buy keris before I was 16. By the age of thirty I had over 2000 keris. These were not all complete, perfect keris, they were keris blades, some were complete keris, many were damaged. I also had a lot of sundry S.E. Asian bladed tools and weapons. In total I had something approaching 3000 objects. I sold most of these things beginning before 1974, and by 1983 I had only the collection from my grandfather, and perhaps 30 or 40 other items, most were keris. In 1982 Empu Suparman began to teach me, and from that time I had a whole new perspective on the study of keris. From 1974 through to 2015 I was spending 2 or 3 months every year in Indonesia and most of that time was spent in Solo.During every visit to Indonesia I went out of my way to look at and handle keris. I would estimate that during each visit I never saw less than one to two thousand keris, and most of these I handled. I do believe that one of the things that is essential to keris study is to see & handle as many keris as possible. However, over the time I've been involved with keris I have found that I cannot learn very much by looking at pictures, I need to see the actual keris and preferably handle it. Link this attitude to the fact that I have a very narrow field of focus these days, and that focus is almost exclusively Jawa & Bali, and you will understand why I have very little interest in a book with a lot of nice pictures and (in my opinion) fairly light weight text. Jean, it is an element of keris culture in Jawa & Bali, most especially in Jawa, that the scabbard & hilt of a keris is changed relatively often. A fine old keris is considered to deserve the best dress that its custodian can afford to give it. Inherited keris often need to have dress changed to reflect the status of the custodian, a keris that is in the custody of a member of karaton hierarchy will very likely have its dress changed every time the custodian achieves a new rank. During the life time of a single person the one keris can well have a number of changes of dress. It is only collectors who use Eurocentric standards who value old keris in old dress. For some Javanese nobles such a situation would be at the least, an embarrassment. I can very easily understand why many noted Indonesian collectors dress their keris in new, bling-bling scabbard & hilt. As Pak Parman said to me, old keris dress is just like an old suit of clothes, when it becomes shabby or out of style, you get rid of it, only the gold, silver and precious stones have any value.