British military practice sword

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by Will M

Jim here is a good article by Matt Easton regarding several British practice swords. Unfortunately it does not include your rare pattern. https://www.antique-swords.co.uk/bri...fencing-swords

That was a very well placed web address and Matt Easton showed some blades marked with an E which must be Enfield marks .. However whereas late 19th C puts a squeeze on inclusion of Foils agewise, it may be noted that they were used as training swords in the 18thC and as Duelling swords especially by the French in the late 19thC and that was copied by German students..thus I believe they can be represented on these pages.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

That was a very well placed web address and Matt Easton showed some blades marked with an E which must be Enfield marks .. However whereas late 19th C puts a squeeze on inclusion of Foils agewise, it may be noted that they were used as training swords in the 18thC and as Duelling swords especially by the French in the late 19thC and that was copied by German students..thus I believe they can be represented on these pages.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Hi Peter,
Thank you for coming in on this, and its great to see you writing here!
Matt Easton's information was outstanding and the E I do believe stood for Enfield.
Well noted on the use of foils in the military in training exercises. It is most interesting that while the sword was in every sense technically obsolete, it was considered viable in training in the way fencing teaches not only dexterity, discipline but self confidence as required in combative situations.

Gen. George Patton, one of the strongest general's of this country, was a champion and world class fencer, and designed one of the finest swords this country had.......the 1913 'Patton' cavalry sword.
How ironic that it arrived in the 20th century, this took place.
Clearly the story of the sword cannot be defined within a chronology or confined to certain time frames.

The Spaniards were known for their venerable fencing (outdated) techniques and using equally older cuphilt rapiers well into the 19th century, but it was a matter of tradition and honor.....the key to the character of the sword.

With the example of training sword I posted here in the OP, as we have found (thanks to Will), this is quite likely an example from the British Raj in India, as the hilt resembles the character of the British M1908 grip on the Indian version.

Best regards
Jim

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Jim, Foil swordplay goes back to the mid 17thC. tHE KEY WEBPAGE IN THIS REGARD IS https://www.leonpaul.com/blog/the-de...f-foil-part-1/

I recall seeing this black and white decoration on Foil target equipment but I cannot remember where.. I shall keep looking!

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

The web is a huge resource and here the history of the Italian foil is laid out in fine detail.. https://www.martinez-destreza.com/bl...y-italian-foil.

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Hello Jim, Foil swordplay goes back to the mid 17thC. tHE KEY WEBPAGE IN THIS REGARD IS https://www.leonpaul.com/blog/the-de...f-foil-part-1/

I recall seeing this black and white decoration on Foil target equipment but I cannot remember where.. I shall keep looking!

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Thank you Peter,
You always find great online resources!
While I once took fencing a short while (about a zillion yrs ago) I thought there were far more aspects of the practice than just physical. The history of fencing of course goes back basically to 16th century with treatises and Fechtbuch's etc. but surely can be traced earlier.

Fencing foils and equipment are a unique field of collecting and these curious military examples fit well into it. As previously mentioned, writers such as Robson mention these 'practice swords' but there is really scant detail on them. Mine seems to be more 'one off' as no other examples are known, perhaps a bowl guard adapted to blade and grip as composite.

Best regards
Jim

[fernando]

Jim, i am infinitely far from an authority in judging what your example would be, based on a Indian 1908 pattern grip and a 1911 Enfield blade but, my question is; could it be that the ‘hyper generous’ protective bowl it equips was of no established pattern but a whim of the owner or the unique style of some kind of association he was a member of … this given the colouring.
And if you allow me the irrelevance ...
Fencing techniques depending on their sense and purpose through time may have gone through an overlapping phenomenon. While fencing as a discipline for the training of combat have lasted for centuries (read millennia), another fencing attitude developing in the XVIII century made it become a 'sport'; was it Domenico Angelo, who established a fencing academy in Soho, London, for one ? So intentionaly selective that nowadays the interpreters of fencing, like those in an olyimpic sense, are called ‘players’, not ‘fighters’; they actually ‘play’ the fleuret (foil) in their escrime sessions. Naming the foil in French is also implicit, as the language used in this sport in many countries is obligatorily French; the referee uses therms like 'arrêt', 'pret' and 'allez'.


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[Jim McDougall]

I am inclined to agree Fernando, and while the use of the Indian style grip causes speculation toward the Raj, it could very well be one off with some private group as you suggest. These kinds of striping themes and brown and white for some reason recall military context, but perhaps that is from the striping on aircraft etc.

Well noted on the antiquity in fencing as necessary combat exercise with swords which indeed went into a sport oriented theme with Angelo, but I believe of course probably went further into Italian origins, as well as Spanish. Agrippa and other Spanish masters taught and wrote in the 16th c.

Many of the terms used in fencing are of course Italian, many from the Spanish treatises and their 'destreza', and as you note certain French terms.

The curiosity of my 'foil' lies in the composite nature as described, the use the the notably foil like 1911 blade and the 1908 grip. Like the M1908 British sword as well as the M1913 Patton, the thrust was the primary attack and this seems aligned to those large bowl guard swords. This was the basis for suggestions it may have military origin.

[fernando]

Jim, i did not want to stuff the thread with longer diverting but, once you mention it and, as per book cover illustrated in above third picture, we have a 1685 treatise where we see that the Destreza was practiced both in Spain and Portugal during the period, each with their own version.


.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...92&postcount=8