English blades

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2021, 08:08 PM

I wanted to thank you guys for these great insights and information, and Fernando for the clarification on those terms.
I have little grasp of scientific and metallurgic terminology and process, but these descriptions are fascinating.
I have however long been deeply involved in studying the lore and much of the superstitious and occult aspects of early working of metals and the symbolism involved in marking and imbuement of blades.

It seems a great deal of superstition and in degree, fear, was held toward blacksmiths and blade forgers. They were considered in league with the forces of darkness as much of their process was regulated by the color of the metal which was better gauged in relative darkness.
Much of this is described in "Cut and Thrust Weapons", E. Wagner, Prague, 1967.

While some of these mentions of blood, urine and other odd substances or elements seem rather silly in these perspectives, the minerals and chemical properties in them were actually providing the catalysts for some of these processes.
Such processes were recorded in a kind of allegorical context in alchemy and other pre-scientific methods so being read in modern times obviously presents a rather extraordinary image.

In forging steel in places in Europe there were instances of adding horseshoes which were from combat horses which had seen battle, and other similarly venerated items. Clearly these associations were irrelevant, but the iron from the horseshoe itself added carbon or whatever component was necessary to the metal forged and its quality.

In many cases in metal forging of wootz etc. the addition of certain vegetal and botanical materials elevated necessary chemical compounds to enhance the quality of the metal. While the results were of course technically chemical reactions, we can see how the nature of these can be seen superstitiously.

fernando · 17th August 2021, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In forging steel in places in Europe there were instances of adding horseshoes which were from combat horses which had seen battle, and other similarly venerated items. Clearly these associations were irrelevant, but the iron from the horseshoe itself added carbon or whatever component was necessary to the metal forged and its quality...

News for me Jim. I had it as a fact that great Spanish barrel makers used ground beaten horseshoe ends to make excelent gun barrels but, such esoteric part on them having seen battle, i was not aware of !

.

urbanspaceman · 17th August 2021, 09:44 PM

It was vital that the correct leaves and twigs were added to the crucible when making Wootz. Just adding charcoal/carbon didn't do it as there needed to be trace elements of Molybdemum, Vanadium and Chromium along with nanowires of cementite.
What is produced is a hypereutectoid steel which is hard, high carbon steel that remains malleable.
Contention exists over whether Wootz blades were quenched at all. It has been suggested that: "if high carbon Wootz is heated to the extent that a substantial amount of the carbides are dissolved, then upon quenching and tempering its microstructure would turn into a proverbial dog's breakfast with very uncertain mechanical properties".
Dr. John Verhoeven continues:
There is a general myth in some of the popular literature that genuine Damascus steel blades possess outstanding mechanical properties, often thought superior to modern steels. This idea was shown to be incorrect as long ago as 1924. A famous Swiss collector, Henri Moser, donated 4 genuine Damascus steel swords, one with a non typical carbon content and microstructure, to B. Zschokke, who performed extensive careful experiments including metallographic and chemical analysis in addition to mechanical testing. A series of bending tests compared samples from the swords to a pattern welded blade and a cast blade from the famous German knife center in Solingen. The 3 good Damascus blades showed significantly inferior bending deflection prior to breakage than the 2 Solingen blades in spite of the fact that the Brinell hardness of the 3 ranged from only 193 to 248, compared to 347 and 463 for the pattern welded and cast Solingen blade, respectively. This is not too surprising in view of the now well known fact that toughness of high carbon steels is inherently low; the Solingen blades had carbon levels of 0.5 to 0.6% compared to 1.3 to 1.9% for the 3 Damascus blades. The reputation of Damascus steel blades being superior to European blades was probably established prior to the 17th century when European blades were still being made by forge welding of carburized iron. It is hard to avoid embrittlement of such blades due to imperfect welding during the forging process as well as difficulty with the carburizing process.
Damascus blades: sharp... yes, but brittle.

urbanspaceman · 17th August 2021, 10:06 PM

My Shotley Bridge sword (which was actually forged in Solingen and brought over with the immigrants: it has a Passau Wolf along with the script Shotley Bridg; see images) is still fantastically sharp but also very flexible. I'm too scared to subject it to excessive bending but I suspect it would survive.
So, while the Germans adopted the Damascus skills, they progressed way beyond such Middle Eastern results.
It must have seemed like magic to those 17th century soldiers. I can not agree more with you Jim regarding the superstitions culture back then. These guys lives depended on the quality of their blades. Let's face it: a bent blade is as useless as a broken blade on the battlefield. Any magical help would inevitably be seriously desired.
Incidentally: the Blacksmith was always regarded as powerful against dark and demon elements and forces - and the smithy a place of safety. If he put a symbol on your blade you were definitely well off.

urbanspaceman · 17th August 2021, 10:08 PM

Note the very distinctive forge weld of the blade up at the forte and the gouge under the letter B in the softer metal.

fernando · 18th August 2021, 10:26 AM

A superstitious resource ... or no clock available ?
We may read in works like one of Ada Bruhn de Hoffmeyer that, time counting for blade tempering was done by saying prayers ... at least by Japanese and Toledans. Could it be that, equivalent to 'modern' clock, their available resource was the one they have achieved with then primary (unique) culture; religion.

In Libro de Alexandre it is mentioned that an outsanding blade was tempered ten times.

.

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2021, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

A superstitious resource ... or no clock available ?
We may read in works like one of Ada Bruhn de Hoffmeyer that, time counting for blade tempering was done by saying prayers ... at least by Japanese and Toledans. Could it be that, equivalent to 'modern' clock, their available resource was the one they have achieved with then primary (unique) culture; religion.

In Libro de Alexandre it is mentioned that an outsanding blade was tempered ten times.

.

This is absolutely fascinating Fernando! and while I had always been aware of superstition and 'dark forces' (occult not evil) at play in forging of metal and blades, I had not realized the religious aspects.

Considering the profuse representations of religious invocations and phrases in inscriptions on blades, this seems perfectly placed.
Thank you again for sharing all this valuable information.

Peter Hudson · 22nd August 2021, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

My Shotley Bridge sword (which was actually forged in Solingen and brought over with the immigrants: it has a Passau Wolf along with the script Shotley Bridg; see images) is still fantastically sharp but also very flexible. I'm too scared to subject it to excessive bending but I suspect it would survive.
So, while the Germans adopted the Damascus skills, they progressed way beyond such Middle Eastern results.
It must have seemed like magic to those 17th century soldiers. I can not agree more with you Jim regarding the superstitions culture back then. These guys lives depended on the quality of their blades. Let's face it: a bent blade is as useless as a broken blade on the battlefield. Any magical help would inevitably be seriously desired.
Incidentally: the Blacksmith was always regarded as powerful against dark and demon elements and forces - and the smithy a place of safety. If he put a symbol on your blade you were definitely well off.

Hello Keith, I have just-re read your excellent book on the swords of Shotley Bridge and I recall a while ago you were actually in Solingen searching their archives most thoroughly ! The sword you illustrate is in my opinion extremely rare .. Regards Peter Hudson

urbanspaceman · 22nd August 2021, 08:12 PM

Hello Keith, I have just-re read your excellent book on the swords of Shotley Bridge and I recall a while ago you were actually in Solingen searching their archives most thoroughly ! The sword you illustrate is in my opinion extremely rare ..

Hello Peter. I will get a new copy of the book to you soon. It has not been officially published yet, nor proof read and edited, as it is intended as a companion piece to the BBC documentary - if it ever gets made what with this dammed virus hanging everything up.
In the meantime, I continue to amend and augment the book as more and more details surface, even after six years of research.
I have had the book privately printed for interested parties who are content to accept it in its present form - which is actually a far more luxurious product than the official publication will be.
The sword is the one from the cover of David Richardson's famous book and is in exemplary condition: they are very, very rare, for reasons explained in the book.
It belonged to Hon. Thomas Watson-Wentworth, son of Edward Watson 2nd Baron of Rockingham. It passed to his son of the same name: 1st Marquess of Rockingham who had a custom-made mahogany casket to put it on display when he built Wentworth Woodhouse (see below). Even he did not know the full story of the sword and described it as Shotley Bridge circa 1680 on the plaque.

urbanspaceman · 23rd August 2021, 10:33 PM

I made a mistake... my sword is not the Wentworth-Woodhouse sword.
The casket is as described, but the sword is in the possession of the Royal Armouries.
It is virtually identical to mine except the binding is missing.
As I said earlier, the information just keeps creeping in.
Now I have to find out where my sword came from.
My apologies.

17th August 2021, 09:44 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Wootz It was vital that the correct leaves and twigs were added to the crucible when making Wootz. Just adding charcoal/carbon didn't do it as there needed to be trace elements of Molybdemum, Vanadium and Chromium along with nanowires of cementite. What is produced is a hypereutectoid steel which is hard, high carbon steel that remains malleable. Contention exists over whether Wootz blades were quenched at all. It has been suggested that: "if high carbon Wootz is heated to the extent that a substantial amount of the carbides are dissolved, then upon quenching and tempering its microstructure would turn into a proverbial dog's breakfast with very uncertain mechanical properties". Dr. John Verhoeven continues: There is a general myth in some of the popular literature that genuine Damascus steel blades possess outstanding mechanical properties, often thought superior to modern steels. This idea was shown to be incorrect as long ago as 1924. A famous Swiss collector, Henri Moser, donated 4 genuine Damascus steel swords, one with a non typical carbon content and microstructure, to B. Zschokke, who performed extensive careful experiments including metallographic and chemical analysis in addition to mechanical testing. A series of bending tests compared samples from the swords to a pattern welded blade and a cast blade from the famous German knife center in Solingen. The 3 good Damascus blades showed significantly inferior bending deflection prior to breakage than the 2 Solingen blades in spite of the fact that the Brinell hardness of the 3 ranged from only 193 to 248, compared to 347 and 463 for the pattern welded and cast Solingen blade, respectively. This is not too surprising in view of the now well known fact that toughness of high carbon steels is inherently low; the Solingen blades had carbon levels of 0.5 to 0.6% compared to 1.3 to 1.9% for the 3 Damascus blades. The reputation of Damascus steel blades being superior to European blades was probably established prior to the 17th century when European blades were still being made by forge welding of carburized iron. It is hard to avoid embrittlement of such blades due to imperfect welding during the forging process as well as difficulty with the carburizing process. Damascus blades: sharp... yes, but brittle.

17th August 2021, 10:06 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Shotley Bridge blade My Shotley Bridge sword (which was actually forged in Solingen and brought over with the immigrants: it has a Passau Wolf along with the script Shotley Bridg; see images) is still fantastically sharp but also very flexible. I'm too scared to subject it to excessive bending but I suspect it would survive. So, while the Germans adopted the Damascus skills, they progressed way beyond such Middle Eastern results. It must have seemed like magic to those 17th century soldiers. I can not agree more with you Jim regarding the superstitions culture back then. These guys lives depended on the quality of their blades. Let's face it: a bent blade is as useless as a broken blade on the battlefield. Any magical help would inevitably be seriously desired. Incidentally: the Blacksmith was always regarded as powerful against dark and demon elements and forces - and the smithy a place of safety. If he put a symbol on your blade you were definitely well off. Attached Images

17th August 2021, 10:08 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	ps Note the very distinctive forge weld of the blade up at the forte and the gouge under the letter B in the softer metal. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 17th August 2021 at 10:09 PM. Reason: typo

18th August 2021, 10:26 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Time counting ... A superstitious resource ... or no clock available ? We may read in works like one of Ada Bruhn de Hoffmeyer that, time counting for blade tempering was done by saying prayers ... at least by Japanese and Toledans. Could it be that, equivalent to 'modern' clock, their available resource was the one they have achieved with then primary (unique) culture; religion. In Libro de Alexandre it is mentioned that an outsanding blade was tempered ten times. . Attached Images

22nd August 2021, 08:12 PM	#9
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	New Shotley Bridge book. Hello Keith, I have just-re read your excellent book on the swords of Shotley Bridge and I recall a while ago you were actually in Solingen searching their archives most thoroughly ! The sword you illustrate is in my opinion extremely rare .. Hello Peter. I will get a new copy of the book to you soon. It has not been officially published yet, nor proof read and edited, as it is intended as a companion piece to the BBC documentary - if it ever gets made what with this dammed virus hanging everything up. In the meantime, I continue to amend and augment the book as more and more details surface, even after six years of research. I have had the book privately printed for interested parties who are content to accept it in its present form - which is actually a far more luxurious product than the official publication will be. The sword is the one from the cover of David Richardson's famous book and is in exemplary condition: they are very, very rare, for reasons explained in the book. It belonged to Hon. Thomas Watson-Wentworth, son of Edward Watson 2nd Baron of Rockingham. It passed to his son of the same name: 1st Marquess of Rockingham who had a custom-made mahogany casket to put it on display when he built Wentworth Woodhouse (see below). Even he did not know the full story of the sword and described it as Shotley Bridge circa 1680 on the plaque. Attached Images

17th August 2021, 08:08 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	I wanted to thank you guys for these great insights and information, and Fernando for the clarification on those terms. I have little grasp of scientific and metallurgic terminology and process, but these descriptions are fascinating. I have however long been deeply involved in studying the lore and much of the superstitious and occult aspects of early working of metals and the symbolism involved in marking and imbuement of blades. It seems a great deal of superstition and in degree, fear, was held toward blacksmiths and blade forgers. They were considered in league with the forces of darkness as much of their process was regulated by the color of the metal which was better gauged in relative darkness. Much of this is described in "Cut and Thrust Weapons", E. Wagner, Prague, 1967. While some of these mentions of blood, urine and other odd substances or elements seem rather silly in these perspectives, the minerals and chemical properties in them were actually providing the catalysts for some of these processes. Such processes were recorded in a kind of allegorical context in alchemy and other pre-scientific methods so being read in modern times obviously presents a rather extraordinary image. In forging steel in places in Europe there were instances of adding horseshoes which were from combat horses which had seen battle, and other similarly venerated items. Clearly these associations were irrelevant, but the iron from the horseshoe itself added carbon or whatever component was necessary to the metal forged and its quality. In many cases in metal forging of wootz etc. the addition of certain vegetal and botanical materials elevated necessary chemical compounds to enhance the quality of the metal. While the results were of course technically chemical reactions, we can see how the nature of these can be seen superstitiously.

23rd August 2021, 10:33 PM	#10
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	error correction I made a mistake... my sword is not the Wentworth-Woodhouse sword. The casket is as described, but the sword is in the possession of the Royal Armouries. It is virtually identical to mine except the binding is missing. As I said earlier, the information just keeps creeping in. Now I have to find out where my sword came from. My apologies.