Noptes: Polish Batorowka & Zygmuntowka sabres

Rivkin · 27th January 2005, 03:26 PM

wow, thank you very much.

ariel · 28th January 2005, 12:06 AM

Wolviex,
Any particular reason to omit the Janowka?

Just joking. Very good thread.
Are there any evolutionary or other differences between the three kinds from Zygmuntowka to Batorowka to Janowka (in order of accession to the Polish throne) or are they essentially the same generic "Polish-Hungarian" model with different markings on the blade?

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:56 AM

What are your thoughts on this being the origin of the interlocking knucklebow, as seen on modern sabres? This buttcap locker sure looks more like it than the screw-on Western European types we see more often onf straight swords with weighted pommels; could that have been a dead end evolutionarily, and this the ancestral type? Looks that way to me, kinda.

wolviex · 28th January 2005, 09:54 AM

Excuse me Tom, but I'm not sure I can understand you clear enough

You're asking me about buttcap, but which sabre do you mean? sorry. About the Batory's sabre I can't give you it's measurments by now, I know this sabre only from this picture, but I'll try to look for it in catalogs.
"Interlocking knucklebow" - do you mean knucklebow attached to the pommel ? I think it has appeared in 18th century. Excuse me once again for misconception.

Ariel: Janowka sabres are rather rare, and this post treats about most popular and famous dedicated sabres: Batorowka and Zygmuntowka. There were also very popular Augustowka sabres in use through whole 18th century, but there you can see only a cypher of August II and August III on blades, so I think they're less interesting.
About evolutionary you're asking. Again I'm not sure I can understand you clear, but if you're asking about sabres itself I think we can not call it evolutionary in any way. Batorowka and other dedicated sabres are not separate type of sabres but just a sabres with imagination, cypher or bust refered to king. If you'll find a modern sabre, i.e. from 20th century with a bust of king Batory on a blade, you can call it Batorowka as well. If you're asking about evolution of Polish sabre (what I belive you know very well) I can invite you to my previous thread about polish hussar sabre, where I belive you'll find something intereting

(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67) . But if you're asking about evolutionary of the imaginations depicted on blades... there you can see evolution, no doubt.

RATHER: Just let me know when you'll be next time in Krakow, I will show you them with great pleasure. Unfortunately our gallery of Polish arms and armour is temporarily closed, but there is no problem for me to open it just for you

My email is at your's disposal.

Rather · 28th January 2005, 01:25 PM

Wolviex, thank you for your generous offer!

I really hope to find the time to see you during my next stay and look forward to be privileged to visit the Arms and Armour collection in your museum. It might be April /May, before I have a chance to come to Krakow the next time, but I will for sure send an e-mail to you well in advance.

tom hyle · 28th January 2005, 03:53 PM

Hmmm; I'm totally disinterested in kings and their pictures and such to tell you the truth; I'm talking about the swords, and of pretty much all being of the same general type; about the knucklebow interlocking with the pommel/buttcap (these are unweighted, yes? Thus not pommels per se; we all get pretty sloppy with that usage, though; it's such a useful word we've expanded its meaning. As a child I would sometimes read pages out of my father's giant Webster lectern-size dictionary, and somewhere in that dang book is a word for a hook for your fingers carved at the end of a handle, not added as a seperate piece like a buttcap or pommel; it's in there, I tells ye (his eyes blaze into the distance, and he clutches some deadly thing with a white-knuckled death-grip....). I think I see a rudimentary form of the commonly seen interlock here; I think its form is intrinsically coming from interlocking with a buttcap rather than a pommel. The Western ones I'd mentioned are knucklebows with flattened ends, pierced for a screw. The end lays against the front side of the weighted pommel, which acts as the nut for a threaded screw attaching the two. I'll see if the pics on that other post are salutary to this concept. I am liable to talk about sabres in your kings thread though; I'm liable to talk about daitos in it, or parang naburs!

Whereever something that seems important comes up, I'm likely to bring it up; such is the mind of Tom.

wolviex · 28th January 2005, 05:06 PM

Tom: it seems that my mind is not such powerful as yours

. Now, when I get through the pages of English-Polish dictionary, I begining to understant what is your point. The construction of European weapon you're writing about is visible in 17th century, in example on small-swords, some rapiers and others edged weapons, isn't it? If so, I think you're right about influences of Polish sabre on modern European sabres, which appeared widely in 18th century, but didn't we discussed it at Radu's thread before? (about sabres development). Anyway, I think that classic Polish hussars sabre could have great influence on modern sabres. But it was just resultant of many eastern, Polish and western European influences, I think...
...or I'm still erroneous in essentia ...

Regards

27th January 2005, 03:26 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	wow, thank you very much.

28th January 2005, 12:06 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wolviex, Any particular reason to omit the Janowka? Just joking. Very good thread. Are there any evolutionary or other differences between the three kinds from Zygmuntowka to Batorowka to Janowka (in order of accession to the Polish throne) or are they essentially the same generic "Polish-Hungarian" model with different markings on the blade?

28th January 2005, 03:56 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	What are your thoughts on this being the origin of the interlocking knucklebow, as seen on modern sabres? This buttcap locker sure looks more like it than the screw-on Western European types we see more often onf straight swords with weighted pommels; could that have been a dead end evolutionarily, and this the ancestral type? Looks that way to me, kinda.

28th January 2005, 09:54 AM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Excuse me Tom, but I'm not sure I can understand you clear enough You're asking me about buttcap, but which sabre do you mean? sorry. About the Batory's sabre I can't give you it's measurments by now, I know this sabre only from this picture, but I'll try to look for it in catalogs. "Interlocking knucklebow" - do you mean knucklebow attached to the pommel ? I think it has appeared in 18th century. Excuse me once again for misconception. Ariel: Janowka sabres are rather rare, and this post treats about most popular and famous dedicated sabres: Batorowka and Zygmuntowka. There were also very popular Augustowka sabres in use through whole 18th century, but there you can see only a cypher of August II and August III on blades, so I think they're less interesting. About evolutionary you're asking. Again I'm not sure I can understand you clear, but if you're asking about sabres itself I think we can not call it evolutionary in any way. Batorowka and other dedicated sabres are not separate type of sabres but just a sabres with imagination, cypher or bust refered to king. If you'll find a modern sabre, i.e. from 20th century with a bust of king Batory on a blade, you can call it Batorowka as well. If you're asking about evolution of Polish sabre (what I belive you know very well) I can invite you to my previous thread about polish hussar sabre, where I belive you'll find something intereting (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67) . But if you're asking about evolutionary of the imaginations depicted on blades... there you can see evolution, no doubt. RATHER: Just let me know when you'll be next time in Krakow, I will show you them with great pleasure. Unfortunately our gallery of Polish arms and armour is temporarily closed, but there is no problem for me to open it just for you My email is at your's disposal.

28th January 2005, 01:25 PM	#5
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Wolviex, thank you for your generous offer! I really hope to find the time to see you during my next stay and look forward to be privileged to visit the Arms and Armour collection in your museum. It might be April /May, before I have a chance to come to Krakow the next time, but I will for sure send an e-mail to you well in advance.

28th January 2005, 03:53 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmm; I'm totally disinterested in kings and their pictures and such to tell you the truth; I'm talking about the swords, and of pretty much all being of the same general type; about the knucklebow interlocking with the pommel/buttcap (these are unweighted, yes? Thus not pommels per se; we all get pretty sloppy with that usage, though; it's such a useful word we've expanded its meaning. As a child I would sometimes read pages out of my father's giant Webster lectern-size dictionary, and somewhere in that dang book is a word for a hook for your fingers carved at the end of a handle, not added as a seperate piece like a buttcap or pommel; it's in there, I tells ye (his eyes blaze into the distance, and he clutches some deadly thing with a white-knuckled death-grip....). I think I see a rudimentary form of the commonly seen interlock here; I think its form is intrinsically coming from interlocking with a buttcap rather than a pommel. The Western ones I'd mentioned are knucklebows with flattened ends, pierced for a screw. The end lays against the front side of the weighted pommel, which acts as the nut for a threaded screw attaching the two. I'll see if the pics on that other post are salutary to this concept. I am liable to talk about sabres in your kings thread though; I'm liable to talk about daitos in it, or parang naburs! Whereever something that seems important comes up, I'm likely to bring it up; such is the mind of Tom.

28th January 2005, 05:06 PM	#7
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Tom: it seems that my mind is not such powerful as yours . Now, when I get through the pages of English-Polish dictionary, I begining to understant what is your point. The construction of European weapon you're writing about is visible in 17th century, in example on small-swords, some rapiers and others edged weapons, isn't it? If so, I think you're right about influences of Polish sabre on modern European sabres, which appeared widely in 18th century, but didn't we discussed it at Radu's thread before? (about sabres development). Anyway, I think that classic Polish hussars sabre could have great influence on modern sabres. But it was just resultant of many eastern, Polish and western European influences, I think... ...or I'm still erroneous in essentia ... Regards