Unusual Shashka

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by JT88

I have a friend who's a long-time antique dealer and expert who I've been conversing with at length about this shashka, I've provided every picture I could possibly summon to him and he is certain it's ivory. He believes its mammoth simply due to the availability of the material during the time this was potentially made. If it is narwhal that would lend to the theory it was refitted potentially in Russia itself as narwal marine ivory would've been rarer and more expensive. I've never handled any other ivory before, but it sure does feel buttery smooth in the hand. I think I can close the door on that theory.

Using a 20x lense I've taken a look at the carvings of the fittings, there is zero evidence of any dremmel or power tool being used here. That of course does not guarantee it is not of modern make, but it continues to add the extreme care that someone put into making this sword whether it is modern or not.

The blade stamp looks exactly the same as the one produced in that Russian PDF, while I studied Russian in college its been more than ten years and I could never read at a technical level anyway, I translated the pages surrounding the diagram but found nothing to indicate where the FB group owner was generating his analysis that the stamp was common in Western Georgia. The blade is still period sharp, probably the sharpest of any of my antiques. Someone took a significant piece out of it at some point swinging it against something hard.

The 84 stamps I'm not entirely sure about, if the work were done in Russia it would have a stamp next to the 84 indicated who the silversmith was, given 84 is .875 pure silver on the Russian zolotniki scale, I think I should be able to determine whether or not it is genuine silver after some time. I have a number of other pieces with solid silver fittings and they patina rather quickly, especially when touched. I've owned this sword for 6 months now, and I've seen no signs of aging after handling so I'm highly skeptical about the purity of the silver.

I appreciate the well-thought-out response and research, this has surely been the most interesting blade that I've owned. I've been pressed to do a write-up on my findings for this blade for quite some time now, and as I am currently on paternity leave I have a goal of finishing the write-up next week of my findings for this beautiful sword.

I'm of like mind that I believe this sword is likely a composite assembled probably late 19th century, with an older blade. The leather has likely been redone in the 20th possibly 21st century. I found it amusing that one of the shashka "experts" in the FB group immediately went to "fake!" then later admitted the Georgians did fashion a small number of swords like this one in that time period but there was "No way" that this was one of those swords, more likely that I was able to attain it. I will add again, I grabbed it at auction in the presence of another 20 legitimate high-quality niello shashka's and other trooper shashka's. I had the chance to nab one of those but this one seemed so out of the ordinary I went for it.

Cheers

I think I'm the same, or I was in my collecting days (long ago, retirement is not conducive monetarily to such expenses). I was always attracted to the anomaly and that proved very intriguing as years went by and I found more evidence on the items I acquired.
Many swords with silver mounts I have had do not tarnish etc. unless a very long period, or any discoloration is very subtle, just dulling. They always say the magnet test will tell. With ivory they say red hot pin will turn it black .

I think this is narwhal because of the remarkable whiteness.

Not sure what they mean about stamps common in Georgia. As I noted, this running wolf is upright along with the letters, where on German blades the wolf is upside down.
On that Clauberg blade I mentioned from first half 19th c. (Rivkin, op.cit. fig.135, p.232) the ricasso is marked to the maker.......the blade is used in a shashka 1870-90, the running wolf, MH letters and 'bees' are crudely scribed in with all in same configuration as yours.
Again, Daghestan started producing European style blades after 1840s, which is why your blade may fall into that category. ...with resemblance to the M1881 without ricasso.

BTW, you're on paternity leave ? Congratulations on the little one!

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think I'm the same, or I was in my collecting days (long ago, retirement is not conducive monetarily to such expenses). I was always attracted to the anomaly and that proved very intriguing as years went by and I found more evidence on the items I acquired.
Many swords with silver mounts I have had do not tarnish etc. unless a very long period, or any discoloration is very subtle, just dulling. They always say the magnet test will tell. With ivory they say red hot pin will turn it black .

I think this is narwhal because of the remarkable whiteness.

Not sure what they mean about stamps common in Georgia. As I noted, this running wolf is upright along with the letters, where on German blades the wolf is upside down.
On that Clauberg blade I mentioned from first half 19th c. (Rivkin, op.cit. fig.135, p.232) the ricasso is marked to the maker.......the blade is used in a shashka 1870-90, the running wolf, MH letters and 'bees' are crudely scribed in with all in same configuration as yours.
Again, Daghestan started producing European style blades after 1840s, which is why your blade may fall into that category. ...with resemblance to the M1881 without ricasso.

BTW, you're on paternity leave ? Congratulations on the little one!

Brilliant, the magnet test! I had not thought of that for some reason. Here I was considering how I could shave off a piece to test. The fittings do not attract the magnet I have in the slightest, and it is an extremely powerful magnet I have to try. The 84 does actually appears in line with Rivkin in the diagram on page 63, this is explained on the next page that Egor Blumberg was the official essayer for silver objects in Tbilisi until 1885. One of his stamps in the diagram is the plain 84, though mine are not perfect rectangles...

I may try the ice test as well carefully to see. I have non-antique silver fittings on two sgian dubhs and a dirk that patina inordinately quickly. Nearly every time I handle them they seem to patina, but the vastly different quality of silver I imagine.

Yes, that Clauberg blade has the same markings and Rivkin says it is a German blade. Without a ricasso though does lend to Daghestan. I am still currently reading through Rivkin, I had bought it and simply thumbed through it before looking for evidence of "skan" craftsmanship but didn't find any.

This has made me want to find a kindjal worthy to pair to this shashka!

Yes, on paternity leave! Great chance with little sleep to research! Slowly trying to finish doing writeups about each of my blades:
https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/t...pdated-28jul21

I'd say the last piece of the puzzle would be trying to find other's with "skan" styled silver work. I cannot find any, I think if I could find at least one other with provenance it would help tell its story.

Thanks for the comment!

[fernando]

Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ?
Bless you .

[Oliver Pinchot]

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

What is the ivory then? It has been checked out but multiple people who all agree it is genuine marine ivory.

I think that is too simple of an explanation. The fittings pass the magnet test as well.

Do you have some examples or pictures of these flea market shashka's for comparison?

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

Oliver I stand corrected.
Do you have an opinion on the handle material?
Is it a composite in your opinion? The band in the middle of the hilt seems to have more wear than the other elements.

[Interested Party]

Gentlemen, what a fascinating discussion. Thanks for the skan reference. I love having better descriptive words, I would have used filigree before. Circassian? I'm not sure? Georgian in a Circassian style, though with the skan I don't know if I would even say that. The motifs that aren't skan seem too non-abstractly floral and make me think eastern Caucasus .There is also a chape present, though without a drag, which older Circassian sheaths did not normally have. On the original sheath galloon would have been a Circassian tell. JT, have you been able to inspect the wood in the sheath in any way to see if it is original? On the subject of a block ricasso, could the blade be shortened? How long is it? All in all I would say Russian or made for a Russian considering the essay marks or lack there of. I have read something concerning the neillo motif on the throat stating that this was favored by Russians, but I can't find the reference. Jim has an argument for pre 1896, but my gut says early 20th century Dagestani fittings with an older blade. I would love for some of our Russian friends to weigh in on this subject.

Now that I am done throwing out unfounded assertions. Three things popped into my head while reading this thread.

1) Jim in #6 the "watercolor" diagrams show the mountings that carry the blade edge up, but the 1877 does not carry vertically, over all they seem in a 19th century Caucasian style shaska configuration. Was this standard for Russian cavalry at the time, or just specialized for units in the Caucasus region, or simply artistic license? While a vertical carry was said to be good for moving on foot through brush and had obvious edge retention advantages it would seem to a bit of an awkward draw for a guarded saber.

2) Not all silvers tarnish equally. Depending on what the silver is alloyed with, often copper, effects how much the silver tarnishes and how quickly. Apparently humidity and exposure to sulfur have a large role in the chemical reaction as well.

3) I found this sight useful while having internal debates on which ivory I am looking at. https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ?
Bless you .

Understood Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

This has indeed been a fascinating discussion, and as always a total learning experience.
It has been for me more of a 'by the numbers' probe into examination of an example from photos alone, so my observations are admittedly rather arbitrary as derived from resources available.

I first began to learn about shashkas in around 1993, and through Oliver Pinchot, who honestly knew more about them than I could imagine, and most of it from first hand knowledge through many connections in these and associated regions. Though being disappointed in the outcome, I would not by any means dispute his assessment.

I.P. in your post #13, you note the pre 1896 suggestion I made, which I meant to be toward these fixtures in the mounts. It would seem surprising that the silver hallmark would be spuriously applied. Very good note on the chemical anomalies which occur in silver as well.

This blade is as agreed an older blade with the running wolf grouping more recently applied.
I had not noticed the reverse carry on the Russian swords, and I do not have 'Mollo' handy, but if I recall, the reverse carry was adopted by mounted troops after the Caucasian fashion in the Cossack units. This was I think also put into use in the line units.
In the one sword in the drawings the scabbard mounts show the cross type apertures to place the Moison-Nagant socket bayonet from the 1891 rifles.
This would suggest infantry if not mistaken.

Eduard Wagner, the artist and author of the book "Cut & Thrust Weapons" from which this is derived, was not one for 'artistic license', in fact his penchant for detail was beyond reproach in my opinion. So I would think this interpretation on the carry mounts is correct.

At this point I am still unclear on the definition of skan, and still puzzled at the grip and decorative elements in the mounts material.

I would also appreciate a more objective description of 'Circassian' style. It seems that the Circassian groups were thoroughly dispersed over much of the western Caucusus transcending regional borders.

[Oliver Pinchot]

The grip material may be ivory or it may be bone. The issue isn't about materials; the maker used whatever he had access to and then aged it, more or less cleverly creating something of a patina. The metal may be silver, German silver or even white brass.

Any of the forum members who are knowledgeable about Caucasian arms (notably Ariel, among others) will note that only the general form of the sword is Caucasian. The embellishment is vaguely Georgian, with its panels of filigree. The sections of carved ivory, or whatever it is, are decidedly modern-- they have no precise analog in the historical period of production. And as I noted above, the wolf, poor thing, is recent and poorly aged to look antique. the 84 mark is made with a recent stamp, slight differences are identifiable by comparison with period silver stamps.

As well-intended as much of the rest of this discussion is, it's frankly pointless. The form of the ricasso, Circassian influence on Georgian work (an existing and interesting type, but there is none whatsoever here) do not enter into the most basic characteristics of attribution: there is, as noted above, no such historical example of this type-- it is simply the modern... imagining... of a craftsman who, like many other Georgians attempting to augment their income in difficult times, engages in cottage industry. He has jeweler's skills, forming, soldering, filigree, carving, engraving and setting. If he can get hold of a blade, he's all set to create.

No, I do not have photos, I never thought them worthy of memorializing. I did comment to one bright young guy who was selling these that he was close to making genuinely good copies; why didn't he replicate what he saw in museums and books instead? Marketed as fine copies, he could do well. Too much work, he replied. Tourists have to think they stole a treasure from you. They wouldn't know the difference, anyway.

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The grip material may be ivory or it may be bone. The issue isn't about materials; the maker used whatever he had access to and then aged it, more or less cleverly creating something of a patina. The metal may be silver, German silver or even white brass.

Any of the forum members who are knowledgeable about Caucasian arms (notably Ariel, among others) will note that only the general form of the sword is Caucasian. The embellishment is vaguely Georgian, with its panels of filigree. The sections of carved ivory, or whatever it is, are decidedly modern-- they have no precise analog in the historical period of production. And as I noted above, the wolf, poor thing, is recent and poorly aged to look antique. the 84 mark is made with a recent stamp, slight differences are identifiable by comparison with period silver stamps.

Well, I very much appreciate the expertise, I know nothing about Caucasian weapons I am quite out of my element here. They do seem to be extraordinarily complicated compared to what I generally deal with: Napoleonic weapons. I would like to still own a kinjal and perhaps another shashka someday as they are aesthetically pleasing and have an interesting history. Next time I'll consult someone with more knowledge!

Thanks again for the detailed response! /thread

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation Oliver!
Collecting in our time, more so than ever before, is perilous as these 'craftsmen' in their cottage work become more skilled.
As I have always thought, the most important weapon an arms collector can possess is knowledge, and one never stops learning.

The audacious comment by the bazaar seller, says it all, and the thing is...if you're going to buy and collect.....KNOW the difference!