Oval Ring in Scottish Basket hilts

[Will M]

Jim the example on the right has a pommel very similar to a Georgian cavalry sword that just sold at Tony Cribbs auction. I noticed it because I have a sister sword virtually identical but with markings and the name of Wyatt on the blade.
Your example and the Tony Cribb sword are the only other swords I have seen with the same pommel profile.

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim and what a great basket this is! I read in Neumann's that both infantry and cavalry baskets had broadsword blades in the earlier periods (I'm assuming mid-18th?). This lengthy blade has to be cavalry! Likewise, the oval would indeed allow for holding a rein while riding. Another point is this basket doesn't have the wrist guard, which would have been more practical on an infantry piece where two enemies might have engaged in hand-to-hand (the wrist guard having been around since the 1690's onwards to prevent the deadly Scottish practice of slicing an opponent's hand in the open basket). Cavalry baskets were used just to mow down their opponets on foot! Of note is the fact that the bars of the saltires are joined by the pommel ring as opposed to just sliding under it. I think these oval-open baskets were later, so with all the factoring, perhaps a mid-18th c. piece? This is a great sword!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Jim and what a great basket this is! I read in Neumann's that both infantry and cavalry baskets had broadsword blades in the earlier periods (I'm assuming mid-18th?). This lengthy blade has to be cavalry! Likewise, the oval would indeed allow for holding a rein while riding. Another point is this basket doesn't have the wrist guard, which would have been more practical on an infantry piece where two enemies might have engaged in hand-to-hand (the wrist guard having been around since the 1690's onwards to prevent the deadly Scottish practice of slicing an opponent's hand in the open basket). Cavalry baskets were used just to mow down their opponets on foot! Of note is the fact that the bars of the saltires are joined by the pommel ring as opposed to just sliding under it. I think these oval-open baskets were later, so with all the factoring, perhaps a mid-18th c. piece? This is a great sword!

Capn, thank you so much for your comments!! well observed as always.
There has always been a good deal of consternation over finding a pragmatic purpose for these oval rings. In most cases it remains held these were for holding the hilt and reins to free the other hand, thus obviously a feature for horsemen and British rather than definitively "Scottish' as intended for use in British mounted units.

While these may have appeared around 1730s, they do seem more prevalent in 1750s+ After 1750s the blade lengths were increased as well, to up to 39" as seen here.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Will M

Jim the example on the right has a pommel very similar to a Georgian cavalry sword that just sold at Tony Cribbs auction. I noticed it because I have a sister sword virtually identical but with markings and the name of Wyatt on the blade.
Your example and the Tony Cribb sword are the only other swords I have seen with the same pommel profile.

Will thank you very much for coming in on this, and especially for reminding me of the 'Wyatt' saber. Its amazing how long we've been discussing that most interesting sword.
Even more amazing is the case of this pommel which is 'bun' shaped with the unusually tall capstan.
It seems that these tall capstans occur on hilts c.1770s but on the pommels that I call 'olive' but Mazansky calls 'sugar loaf' (?) (XIV type).

The pommel on my basket hilt seems to align with the earlier Scottish forms except for the tall capstan. As the 'olive' pommels were beginning c. 1750s it does seem possible that the feature of the tall capstan might be in effect transitional. I had no idea the pommel would be so unusual so your observation of its apparent rarity is most interesting.

Are there images of the sword sold at Cribb?
These pommels seem atypical to both the slotted hilts and basket hilts.

[Mel H]

There was some discussion quite a while since among collectors regarding the oval ring, the thinking being that it was there in order for a horseman to be able to quickly pass the sword temporarily to his left hand where his fingers could safely grip it through the ring till the user needed to take it back ready to use in his right hand. I really can't remember if anyone put forward any provenance.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mel H

There was some discussion quite a while since among collectors regarding the oval ring, the thinking being that it was there in order for a horseman to be able to quickly pass the sword temporarily to his left hand where his fingers could safely grip it through the ring till the user needed to take it back ready to use in his right hand. I really can't remember if anyone put forward any provenance.

Thank you very much Mel for responding. This was one of the suggested possible purposes mentioned in some of the literature, it seems Ive seen it mentioned a couple of times. I dont think this aperture can be deemed for any specific purpose by design, but would serve well in this as well as to hold reins. As with many of these questions on certain elements found in sword design and structurally in hilts, there is often no recorded support historically, but its always good to have these things in discourse where material is compiled.
Again, thank you for this entry!!!

[Battara]

I've often seen people post this theory for years. Since I don't ride horses nor have a Scottish basket hilt pre-1800 (), I have no idea.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Battara

I've often seen people post this theory for years. Since I don't ride horses nor have a Scottish basket hilt pre-1800 (), I have no idea.

No problem Jose, I find myself in the same situation in discussions on the edged weapons of SE Asia, Indonesia and the Phillipines. Its all in areas with which we are most familiar. To many, the question on these features is moot, but for those of us with inate curiosity, it simply seems to need answering.
Even the 'experts' dont know for sure, but just present the most plausible answers.

[M ELEY]

I personally think the ring is so you can hold the basket and your fingers can still hold your pewter shot of Drambuie