Dating and determination of origin of a sabre with a lion-snake mount

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 07:14 PM

My initial conclusions based on my research into this sabre left me with a headache. At first glance, the mounting and decoration of this sabre spontaneously reminds me of 19th century Austro-Hungarian examples (see link).

http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe208.html

Based on the scabbard shape, I would not have dated the scabbard earlier than the very late 18th century, but rather to the beginning of the 19th century.

But on the other hand, this sabre has been dated before 1797. If this sabre is really to be dated before Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, no respective influence can have taken place.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 08:23 PM

Richard, thank you for sharing your personal research already completed, which is most interesting aligned with our guesses and suggestions here. This rather expands the body of detail we are considering.

The Austro-Hungarian example is interesting in having similar zoomorphic theme with MANED lion and twin serpents and dated about two decades later.
It is often interesting to see how aesthetically similar styles and motif can diffuse widely in military fashion, of course a distinct characteristic of officers.

Of course I remain with my holding to the French honor saber probably one off, post Egyptian campaigns (probably c. 1805).

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 09:57 PM

Hello Jim.
My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard R.

Hello Jim.
My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.

Actually this is quite outside my normal field of study so I have learned a great deal here from the input from Mark, Victrix and Bryce as well as some very valuable private input from Mr. Richard Dellar, a well known author and authority on swords of England and France.
Your sharing of your own research findings have also been greatly appreciated.
I think we can feel pretty confident in the French resolution, but of course with one off examples, comparable examples are unlikely, so we remain at speculative situation.
Great discussion, and thank you for the opportunity to investigate this.

21st July 2021, 07:14 PM	#1
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	My initial conclusions based on my research into this sabre left me with a headache. At first glance, the mounting and decoration of this sabre spontaneously reminds me of 19th century Austro-Hungarian examples (see link). http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe208.html Based on the scabbard shape, I would not have dated the scabbard earlier than the very late 18th century, but rather to the beginning of the 19th century. But on the other hand, this sabre has been dated before 1797. If this sabre is really to be dated before Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, no respective influence can have taken place.

21st July 2021, 08:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Richard, thank you for sharing your personal research already completed, which is most interesting aligned with our guesses and suggestions here. This rather expands the body of detail we are considering. The Austro-Hungarian example is interesting in having similar zoomorphic theme with MANED lion and twin serpents and dated about two decades later. It is often interesting to see how aesthetically similar styles and motif can diffuse widely in military fashion, of course a distinct characteristic of officers. Of course I remain with my holding to the French honor saber probably one off, post Egyptian campaigns (probably c. 1805).

21st July 2021, 09:57 PM	#3
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	Hello Jim. My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.