Dating and determination of origin of a sabre with a lion-snake mount

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 05:48 PM

Richard, thank you for this additional information which is of course most interesting and salient to our efforts to properly identify this saber.
The Russian factor is certainly interesting and as previously noted, Russian styles definitely ran in close parallels with French in these times.

Here I would observe the note on the Solingen maker in Zlatoust who may have introduced this blade decorating style. It has been well known that many makers from Solingen went there, as well as to France (Klingenthal). While the stipple effect was as shown known on Russian blades, they certainly were on French as well, and clearly the clipped point, which again was a Solingen affectation are seen on these blades.

I think it is important to return to the decorating motif on this saber, which is a key factor in determining its probable classification in the present mounts.
Blades were of course often remounted, so these kinds of estimations need to focus on the mounts which typically lean toward more specific identification.

We have been discussing the possible motif on this saber as to honoring the Nile campaigns, and the most unusual lion head as well as serpent.
It is tempting to look at the pyramid on the motif of the sword just illustrated, and wonder at its connection as this blade predates those campaigns. However I would point out that by this time in the 18th century, there were strong masonic and fraternal affiliations throughout Europe, France in particular but I am unclear on Russian status. The pyramid is well known in Masonic symbology so that may be a possible reason for inclusion in motif.

While these added examples are of most interest, I remain inclined to a French origin for this saber of our discussion. The French were deeply interested and effected by Egyptian history and mythology and in their affection for neoclassic allegory seem likely to have used this lioness and serpent theme toward the motif on this with the Nile events in mind.

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 07:14 PM

My initial conclusions based on my research into this sabre left me with a headache. At first glance, the mounting and decoration of this sabre spontaneously reminds me of 19th century Austro-Hungarian examples (see link).

http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe208.html

Based on the scabbard shape, I would not have dated the scabbard earlier than the very late 18th century, but rather to the beginning of the 19th century.

But on the other hand, this sabre has been dated before 1797. If this sabre is really to be dated before Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, no respective influence can have taken place.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 08:23 PM

Richard, thank you for sharing your personal research already completed, which is most interesting aligned with our guesses and suggestions here. This rather expands the body of detail we are considering.

The Austro-Hungarian example is interesting in having similar zoomorphic theme with MANED lion and twin serpents and dated about two decades later.
It is often interesting to see how aesthetically similar styles and motif can diffuse widely in military fashion, of course a distinct characteristic of officers.

Of course I remain with my holding to the French honor saber probably one off, post Egyptian campaigns (probably c. 1805).

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 09:57 PM

Hello Jim.
My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard R.

Hello Jim.
My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.

Actually this is quite outside my normal field of study so I have learned a great deal here from the input from Mark, Victrix and Bryce as well as some very valuable private input from Mr. Richard Dellar, a well known author and authority on swords of England and France.
Your sharing of your own research findings have also been greatly appreciated.
I think we can feel pretty confident in the French resolution, but of course with one off examples, comparable examples are unlikely, so we remain at speculative situation.
Great discussion, and thank you for the opportunity to investigate this.

21st July 2021, 05:48 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,745	Richard, thank you for this additional information which is of course most interesting and salient to our efforts to properly identify this saber. The Russian factor is certainly interesting and as previously noted, Russian styles definitely ran in close parallels with French in these times. Here I would observe the note on the Solingen maker in Zlatoust who may have introduced this blade decorating style. It has been well known that many makers from Solingen went there, as well as to France (Klingenthal). While the stipple effect was as shown known on Russian blades, they certainly were on French as well, and clearly the clipped point, which again was a Solingen affectation are seen on these blades. I think it is important to return to the decorating motif on this saber, which is a key factor in determining its probable classification in the present mounts. Blades were of course often remounted, so these kinds of estimations need to focus on the mounts which typically lean toward more specific identification. We have been discussing the possible motif on this saber as to honoring the Nile campaigns, and the most unusual lion head as well as serpent. It is tempting to look at the pyramid on the motif of the sword just illustrated, and wonder at its connection as this blade predates those campaigns. However I would point out that by this time in the 18th century, there were strong masonic and fraternal affiliations throughout Europe, France in particular but I am unclear on Russian status. The pyramid is well known in Masonic symbology so that may be a possible reason for inclusion in motif. While these added examples are of most interest, I remain inclined to a French origin for this saber of our discussion. The French were deeply interested and effected by Egyptian history and mythology and in their affection for neoclassic allegory seem likely to have used this lioness and serpent theme toward the motif on this with the Nile events in mind.

21st July 2021, 07:14 PM	#2
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	My initial conclusions based on my research into this sabre left me with a headache. At first glance, the mounting and decoration of this sabre spontaneously reminds me of 19th century Austro-Hungarian examples (see link). http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe208.html Based on the scabbard shape, I would not have dated the scabbard earlier than the very late 18th century, but rather to the beginning of the 19th century. But on the other hand, this sabre has been dated before 1797. If this sabre is really to be dated before Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, no respective influence can have taken place.

21st July 2021, 08:23 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,745	Richard, thank you for sharing your personal research already completed, which is most interesting aligned with our guesses and suggestions here. This rather expands the body of detail we are considering. The Austro-Hungarian example is interesting in having similar zoomorphic theme with MANED lion and twin serpents and dated about two decades later. It is often interesting to see how aesthetically similar styles and motif can diffuse widely in military fashion, of course a distinct characteristic of officers. Of course I remain with my holding to the French honor saber probably one off, post Egyptian campaigns (probably c. 1805).

21st July 2021, 09:57 PM	#4
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	Hello Jim. My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.