Keris from Garut with Quranic inscriptions

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2021, 11:07 PM

Thank you David.

I have given serious consideration to continuing this discussion, there is more than a little content in some posts that should be clarified, however, this clarification cannot be provided in the absence of lengthy text dealing with matters that are so far off topic that they could not be justified.

As I have already stated, I am not yet in a position where I can put forward any defensible opinions in respect of the true character represented by this female hilt style.

The only thing of which I am relatively certain is that the term "Veiled Durga", or its equivalent in any language native to Indonesia, did not originate anywhere in either Jawa or Bali.

David · 21st July 2021, 10:45 PM

Thanks Alan. Yes, i have to say i have been equally intrigued with this hilt form for sometime, as i think you know. It is certainly one of the most enigmatic keris hilt forms i have ever encountered, but i have always questioned the Durga identification and it does seem to me to be one that has been fostered mostly by Western writers and collectors. I will not dismiss it out of hand, but still have never been shown significant evidence to fully support it.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2021, 12:45 AM

Yeah, it is a problem, but maybe, for me, it would not be a problem except that I have never heard a name that equates to "Veiled Durga" in Bahasa Indonesia, Javanese, or Balinese.

I'd be happy to accept the carvers' "Wadon" for the Javanese name, it can be logically explained in terms of Javanese understandings of the keris.

But then we have the "Balu Makabun" name that seems to be general in Bali, and that I have been assured by a close friend who happens to be recognised as a respected authority on both the keris and Indonesian art & culture in general, that the current generally accepted name for this hilt style is the BM term.

I think he's right.

I think the Javanese Wadon is correct insofar as Jawa of the last 100 years or so is concerned. Maybe not absolutely correct, but correct in limited terms.

I think the "Veiled Durga" is a complete invention of somebody who was not a part of Indonesian society.

Currently all I have is a folder of notes that is not much more than a collection of ideas, some good ideas, more bad ideas.

From my perspective, a big hurdle in this matter is the varying and often erroneous understanding of the characters that I currently see as major contenders for the character whose face we cannot see.

I don't like pulling opinions out of thin air, so until I can come up with something supportable, I'm just going to let this whole thing go back to sleep again.

David · 22nd July 2021, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't like pulling opinions out of thin air, so until I can come up with something supportable, I'm just going to let this whole thing go back to sleep again.

Agreed. Don't worry though, it will probably wake up sometime around 4am to pee like so often find myself doing these days. LOL!

20th July 2021, 11:07 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you David. I have given serious consideration to continuing this discussion, there is more than a little content in some posts that should be clarified, however, this clarification cannot be provided in the absence of lengthy text dealing with matters that are so far off topic that they could not be justified. As I have already stated, I am not yet in a position where I can put forward any defensible opinions in respect of the true character represented by this female hilt style. The only thing of which I am relatively certain is that the term "Veiled Durga", or its equivalent in any language native to Indonesia, did not originate anywhere in either Jawa or Bali.

21st July 2021, 10:45 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Alan. Yes, i have to say i have been equally intrigued with this hilt form for sometime, as i think you know. It is certainly one of the most enigmatic keris hilt forms i have ever encountered, but i have always questioned the Durga identification and it does seem to me to be one that has been fostered mostly by Western writers and collectors. I will not dismiss it out of hand, but still have never been shown significant evidence to fully support it.

22nd July 2021, 12:45 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, it is a problem, but maybe, for me, it would not be a problem except that I have never heard a name that equates to "Veiled Durga" in Bahasa Indonesia, Javanese, or Balinese. I'd be happy to accept the carvers' "Wadon" for the Javanese name, it can be logically explained in terms of Javanese understandings of the keris. But then we have the "Balu Makabun" name that seems to be general in Bali, and that I have been assured by a close friend who happens to be recognised as a respected authority on both the keris and Indonesian art & culture in general, that the current generally accepted name for this hilt style is the BM term. I think he's right. I think the Javanese Wadon is correct insofar as Jawa of the last 100 years or so is concerned. Maybe not absolutely correct, but correct in limited terms. I think the "Veiled Durga" is a complete invention of somebody who was not a part of Indonesian society. Currently all I have is a folder of notes that is not much more than a collection of ideas, some good ideas, more bad ideas. From my perspective, a big hurdle in this matter is the varying and often erroneous understanding of the characters that I currently see as major contenders for the character whose face we cannot see. I don't like pulling opinions out of thin air, so until I can come up with something supportable, I'm just going to let this whole thing go back to sleep again.