Dating and determination of origin of a sabre with a lion-snake mount

Bryce · 19th July 2021, 03:59 AM

G'day Richard,
Sorry I am a bit late to this discussion. It all sounds a bit mysterious. Without seeing the blade decoration, it certainly looks a lot more French than British. The blade design with that clipped point is more of a French trait than British, (although as Jim pointed out you do get British blades with this as well). The scabbard is very French looking. I haven't seen a hilt exactly like this before, but have seen plenty of sculpted "one-off" hilts like this on British swords.
Cheers,
Bryce

Richard R. · 19th July 2021, 05:12 PM

Thank you very much for the interesting and profound hints and contributions.

The scabbard has no signature. The picture below shows a section of the blade decoration.

P.S. I must admit that it is not easy for me to write in English and I hope that my thoughts and contributions are understandable enough. I would like to apologise in advance for any misunderstandings.

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2021, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard R.

Thank you very much for the interesting and profound hints and contributions.

The scabbard has no signature. The picture below shows a section of the blade decoration.

P.S. I must admit that it is not easy for me to write in English and I hope that my thoughts and contributions are understandable enough. I would like to apologise in advance for any misunderstandings.

Richard, you are actually doing very well with the English!
I will say again, and as previously noted, Mark's instincts (post #2) were spot on, this is French. I have it on good authority that the solid brass (again as Mark noted) is very much an indicator of French origin.

I was informed that the 'stipple' design in the blade ornamentation is something French of late 18th-early 19th c.

The circular rosettes with floral pattern are similar to others seen on French scabbards (the ones I have seen less petals).

The absence of maker/cutler names on scabbard eliminates British origin with very rare exception from this period. Solid brass scabbard suggests French.

The clipped point on the blade is more of Continental form, being more dramatic...the typically German made blades on British swords with this feature seem more elongated (note the point in my post #13, same type clipped point).

It seems I have seen this kind of lioness or maneless cat head somewhere, but of course unable to locate.

These unusual and sometimes 'one off' French officers swords are hard to pinpoint by comparison to others as there was not a standard run of any one pattern in these 'artistic' circumstances. Just as in England, the themes were typically neoclassic Greek allegories from that mythology in this period (1800-16).

Victrix · 19th July 2021, 08:56 PM

Quoted from Britannica: ” Sekhmet, also spelled Sakhmet, in Egyptian religion, a goddess of war and the destroyer of the enemies of the sun god Re... Like other fierce goddesses in the Egyptian pantheon, she was called the “Eye of Re.” She was the companion of the god Ptah and was worshipped principally at Memphis. She was usually depicted as a lioness or as a woman with the head of a lioness, on which was placed the solar disk and the uraeus serpent.”

Bryce · 19th July 2021, 09:21 PM

G'day Richard,
For some reason I have always thought this "stippled" blade decoration was Russian, but I am unsure where I got this from.
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2021, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Richard,
For some reason I have always thought this "stippled" blade decoration was Russian, but I am unsure where I got this from.
Cheers,
Bryce

Well noted Bryce. The Russians were heavily copying French styles and patterns in uniforms and weapons. Not sure how all this was during the Napoleonic campaigns but just after they had many direct parallels.

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2021, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Quoted from Britannica: ” Sekhmet, also spelled Sakhmet, in Egyptian religion, a goddess of war and the destroyer of the enemies of the sun god Re... Like other fierce goddesses in the Egyptian pantheon, she was called the “Eye of Re.” She was the companion of the god Ptah and was worshipped principally at Memphis. She was usually depicted as a lioness or as a woman with the head of a lioness, on which was placed the solar disk and the uraeus serpent.”

Thats pretty interesting, and while most of these neo classic themes on these officers swords in England and France seem based on Hercules, the chimera etc. ....the Egyptian theme was prevalent on many swords, as with the Nile swords. I must say this saber does have a feel toward the theme you mention.

M ELEY · 19th July 2021, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Quoted from Britannica: ” Sekhmet, also spelled Sakhmet, in Egyptian religion, a goddess of war and the destroyer of the enemies of the sun god Re... Like other fierce goddesses in the Egyptian pantheon, she was called the “Eye of Re.” She was the companion of the god Ptah and was worshipped principally at Memphis. She was usually depicted as a lioness or as a woman with the head of a lioness, on which was placed the solar disk and the uraeus serpent.”

Thank you, Victrix, for that valuable perspective. Again, it would support the Napoleonic Egyptian Campaign theory...

Bryce · 20th July 2021, 03:42 AM

In this case we have the whole forequarters and pelt, so not sure the Egyptian connection applies, but could be artistic license? The other possibility is its a tiger?
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Quoted from Britannica: ” Sekhmet, also spelled Sakhmet, in Egyptian religion, a goddess of war and the destroyer of the enemies of the sun god Re... Like other fierce goddesses in the Egyptian pantheon, she was called the “Eye of Re.” She was the companion of the god Ptah and was worshipped principally at Memphis. She was usually depicted as a lioness or as a woman with the head of a lioness, on which was placed the solar disk and the uraeus serpent.”

Victrix, this is a brilliant catch! and the more I look at it and in comparison with this hilt, the more compelling I think this explanation is.,
The French were obsessed with ancient Egypt and the mythology and as such would surely have adopted these elements in themes of special one off honor sabers such as this appears.

While the Uraeus was of course of cobra, the lack of hood here may simply be license or inadvertant omission. The goddess Sekhmet depicted as a lioness is certainly a compelling explanation for the pommel as typically the maned lion was popular. On the langet, I cant tell what these items are, they look like horns, but could they be solar rays?

There seems to be a palm and a lotus used as well, which may allude to Nile.

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 02:06 PM

Decorations with speckled dots ("stippled" blade decoration) are known from luxury blades of Zlatoust (Russia) and were probably introduced there in 1816 by the master sword smith Wilhelm Nikolaus Schaaf, an emigrant from Solingen. Below you find two links to examples in the State Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg.

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/661213

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/668168

I know only few examples of very late 18th and early 19th century French blades with this kind of decorative element. As you can see on the sabre blade of General Kellermann (Link) and on the blade of Colonel Soulès Honour sabre (Sabre d'honneur) dating 1801 (picture attached).

https://collections.isere.fr/fr/muse...&pgn=7&pos=115

The sabre attributed to General Kellermann is said to have been worn by him at the Battle of Valmy on 20 September 1792. I am confused about the dating of this sabre or at least of the blade. Due to the blade shape and length as well as the blade groove all the way to the tip and the engraved pyramid, I would not have estimated this blade earlier than the second half of French Directory (1795-1799).

Accrording the "Musée de la Révolution française" Kellermann gave this sabre to his aide-de-camp, General Rigaud, who then passed it on to Sergeant de Gaulle, and bequeathed it to his grandson Frantz Goerg. This sword was apperently authenticated by Marshal Kellermann's granddaughter, Princess Ginetti born Henriette de Valmy in 1892, during an exhibition for the bicentenary of the Battle of Valmy (in 1992).

The time from 1792 to the authentication of this sabre in 1992 is very long and carries the risk of error and misunderstanding.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 04:48 PM

Richard, thank you for this additional information which is of course most interesting and salient to our efforts to properly identify this saber.
The Russian factor is certainly interesting and as previously noted, Russian styles definitely ran in close parallels with French in these times.

Here I would observe the note on the Solingen maker in Zlatoust who may have introduced this blade decorating style. It has been well known that many makers from Solingen went there, as well as to France (Klingenthal). While the stipple effect was as shown known on Russian blades, they certainly were on French as well, and clearly the clipped point, which again was a Solingen affectation are seen on these blades.

I think it is important to return to the decorating motif on this saber, which is a key factor in determining its probable classification in the present mounts.
Blades were of course often remounted, so these kinds of estimations need to focus on the mounts which typically lean toward more specific identification.

We have been discussing the possible motif on this saber as to honoring the Nile campaigns, and the most unusual lion head as well as serpent.
It is tempting to look at the pyramid on the motif of the sword just illustrated, and wonder at its connection as this blade predates those campaigns. However I would point out that by this time in the 18th century, there were strong masonic and fraternal affiliations throughout Europe, France in particular but I am unclear on Russian status. The pyramid is well known in Masonic symbology so that may be a possible reason for inclusion in motif.

While these added examples are of most interest, I remain inclined to a French origin for this saber of our discussion. The French were deeply interested and effected by Egyptian history and mythology and in their affection for neoclassic allegory seem likely to have used this lioness and serpent theme toward the motif on this with the Nile events in mind.

20th July 2021, 03:42 AM	#9
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	In this case we have the whole forequarters and pelt, so not sure the Egyptian connection applies, but could be artistic license? The other possibility is its a tiger? Cheers, Bryce Last edited by Bryce; 20th July 2021 at 03:56 AM.

21st July 2021, 02:06 PM	#11
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	Blades with "stippled" blade decoration. Decorations with speckled dots ("stippled" blade decoration) are known from luxury blades of Zlatoust (Russia) and were probably introduced there in 1816 by the master sword smith Wilhelm Nikolaus Schaaf, an emigrant from Solingen. Below you find two links to examples in the State Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg. https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/661213 https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/668168 I know only few examples of very late 18th and early 19th century French blades with this kind of decorative element. As you can see on the sabre blade of General Kellermann (Link) and on the blade of Colonel Soulès Honour sabre (Sabre d'honneur) dating 1801 (picture attached). https://collections.isere.fr/fr/muse...&pgn=7&pos=115 The sabre attributed to General Kellermann is said to have been worn by him at the Battle of Valmy on 20 September 1792. I am confused about the dating of this sabre or at least of the blade. Due to the blade shape and length as well as the blade groove all the way to the tip and the engraved pyramid, I would not have estimated this blade earlier than the second half of French Directory (1795-1799). Accrording the "Musée de la Révolution française" Kellermann gave this sabre to his aide-de-camp, General Rigaud, who then passed it on to Sergeant de Gaulle, and bequeathed it to his grandson Frantz Goerg. This sword was apperently authenticated by Marshal Kellermann's granddaughter, Princess Ginetti born Henriette de Valmy in 1892, during an exhibition for the bicentenary of the Battle of Valmy (in 1992). The time from 1792 to the authentication of this sabre in 1992 is very long and carries the risk of error and misunderstanding. Attached Images

19th July 2021, 03:59 AM	#1
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Richard, Sorry I am a bit late to this discussion. It all sounds a bit mysterious. Without seeing the blade decoration, it certainly looks a lot more French than British. The blade design with that clipped point is more of a French trait than British, (although as Jim pointed out you do get British blades with this as well). The scabbard is very French looking. I haven't seen a hilt exactly like this before, but have seen plenty of sculpted "one-off" hilts like this on British swords. Cheers, Bryce

19th July 2021, 05:12 PM	#2
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	Dating on the basis of blade decoration Thank you very much for the interesting and profound hints and contributions. The scabbard has no signature. The picture below shows a section of the blade decoration. P.S. I must admit that it is not easy for me to write in English and I hope that my thoughts and contributions are understandable enough. I would like to apologise in advance for any misunderstandings. Attached Images

19th July 2021, 08:56 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Quoted from Britannica: ” Sekhmet, also spelled Sakhmet, in Egyptian religion, a goddess of war and the destroyer of the enemies of the sun god Re... Like other fierce goddesses in the Egyptian pantheon, she was called the “Eye of Re.” She was the companion of the god Ptah and was worshipped principally at Memphis. She was usually depicted as a lioness or as a woman with the head of a lioness, on which was placed the solar disk and the uraeus serpent.”

19th July 2021, 09:21 PM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Richard, For some reason I have always thought this "stippled" blade decoration was Russian, but I am unsure where I got this from. Cheers, Bryce

21st July 2021, 04:48 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,294	Richard, thank you for this additional information which is of course most interesting and salient to our efforts to properly identify this saber. The Russian factor is certainly interesting and as previously noted, Russian styles definitely ran in close parallels with French in these times. Here I would observe the note on the Solingen maker in Zlatoust who may have introduced this blade decorating style. It has been well known that many makers from Solingen went there, as well as to France (Klingenthal). While the stipple effect was as shown known on Russian blades, they certainly were on French as well, and clearly the clipped point, which again was a Solingen affectation are seen on these blades. I think it is important to return to the decorating motif on this saber, which is a key factor in determining its probable classification in the present mounts. Blades were of course often remounted, so these kinds of estimations need to focus on the mounts which typically lean toward more specific identification. We have been discussing the possible motif on this saber as to honoring the Nile campaigns, and the most unusual lion head as well as serpent. It is tempting to look at the pyramid on the motif of the sword just illustrated, and wonder at its connection as this blade predates those campaigns. However I would point out that by this time in the 18th century, there were strong masonic and fraternal affiliations throughout Europe, France in particular but I am unclear on Russian status. The pyramid is well known in Masonic symbology so that may be a possible reason for inclusion in motif. While these added examples are of most interest, I remain inclined to a French origin for this saber of our discussion. The French were deeply interested and effected by Egyptian history and mythology and in their affection for neoclassic allegory seem likely to have used this lioness and serpent theme toward the motif on this with the Nile events in mind.