Dating and determination of origin of a sabre with a lion-snake mount

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Well, maybe I spoke too soon about a French connotation! Here is a British presentation sword heavily influenced by the Nile Campaign featuring a fine crocodile hilt, blued presentation fighting blade, etc. Still, my point being that the fighting in Egypt circa 1800 as well as the Barbary Wars affected sword design (U.S. forces also were influenced by exposure to ethnographic cultures around this time period, creating a mameluke style sword for the newly reformed U.S. Marine Corps). Based very loosely on my supposition, your sword could date c. 1800-30. Could we see a complete picture of the blade, as well as markings, designs? Length?

I very much agree with this being of this period and as you well note Capn, the campaigns in Egypt dramatically influenced military swords, with the well known mameluke sabers being a prime example.

'Oriental' fashion had already influenced European military styles since the mid 18th century, and the exotic flamboyance and appeal of the romantic 'flashing scimitar' were instantly appealing to the officers of both England and France. While England was a bit delayed in officially designating the mameluke hilt (1831), there were examples much earlier.
The French however, seem to have been far 'sooner out of the gate' with mameluke hilts and of the familiar French variance of artistic scope in mountings.

The neoclassic motif and zoomorphic representations on sword hilts, as shown here were characteristic already on officers sword hilts, but the Egyptian context added new themes, as seen by the 'Nile presentation swords' with crocodiles as shown.

As noted, in England the flowing mane was favored on lion heads (exceptions of course, but fewer) while in France, the leopard, well known in hussar fashion on the Continent seems more in accord with this hilt.

That is why I am inclined more to a French origin here, the snake, an artistic addition with certain allegorical connections classically also seems more a likely French affectation.

These hilts are difficult to classify as officers of course commissioned their own swords by artisans who also designed them independently to appeal to the competitive fashion atmosphere of this time.

I one had a British M1803 lionhead flank company officers saber, but instead of the flowing mane, the lion was given a stylized sphinx type style. I believe the 'pattern' was designated to a particular British unit, of which there were of course very few probably made.

[Richard R.]

Thank you very much for your comments and assessments.

For my research, it is essential that this sabre is judged without consideration of the attributed historical context, respectively without preconception. For this reason, I will only show the outline of the blade in a first step. The blade length along the cutting edge measures approx. 80cm.

I am grateful for all further opinions and ideas.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard R.

Thank you very much for your comments and assessments.

For my research, it is essential that this sabre is judged without consideration of the attributed historical context, respectively without preconception. For this reason, I will only show the outline of the blade in a first step. The blade length along the cutting edge measures approx. 80cm.

I am grateful for all further opinions and ideas.

This is a most interesting boundary for assessing the probable origin and period of a sword as the decoration and theme present in mounts are typically styled with various themes in mind. These are of course based on historic and traditional subjects, thus often give us the probable national context of the sword.

The blade of course can often be judged pragmatically in degree, as the designs and profiles have those kinds of considerations rather than style typically.
This is obviously a saber blade, cavalry (length) and the point most notable in what is known as a 'clipped point'. This type of point seems to have become popular in about mid 18th century, usually in Solingen made blades and its purpose seems to have been to afford better potential for a thrust..
While sabers are not typically regarded as a thrusting weapon, the arguments for cut vs. thrust were an ongoing debate, and the French were known for the deadly effect of their sword thrusts.

Napoleon actually instructed his cavalry to 'give point'. With the saber the thrust is used from a high tierce position downward. This is well illustrated in the 1968 movie "The Duelists' with the combatants mounted and charging at each other.

While this feature is well known on French and Continental sabers, it is seen on British 18th century swords in some degree, but by the Napoleonic period the sabers were leaning toward expanded point (yelman) and quill back blades while troopers sabers were hatchet point (M1796).

With that, based on the blade there is inclination toward French though as I mentioned these points were strongly Solingen. In this period, the sword works at Klingenthal had many Solingen workers, and Napoleon did take over Solingen itself.,

[Richard R.]

I have searched for a comparable sabre grip on a French sabre, without success. Specially to note is that sabre hilt is distinguishingly formed as a lioness. This seems unusual, as otherwise lions (with manes) seem to be seen as pommels on sabre or sword hilts.

Am I correct in assuming that this mount and the decoration as well as the outline of the blade do not point to a British sabre? This even though sabre hilts with lion heads and serpents on the guard are known on English honour sabres for the beginning of the 19th century.

[Victrix]

What about the foliage depicted on the scabbard? Looks like trefoil clover and some other flower. The big flower is not lotus (which has several layers of partially overlapping petals). Also, could it be a mer-lion (Singapore) with a sea serpent on the hilt and guard?

[Richard R.]

Until now, the pommel has been described as a lioness. I personally assume that a lioness is indeed depicted. But this could be a false assumption.

Without giving too much away, one can assume that the sabre, certainly the blade, is of European origin.

In addition to the blade outline, you can see the blade tip here.

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted points,
The blade is of 'clipped point' style as I have mentioned. It is a type of point which evolved around mid 18th century. It appears in Gerhard Seifert's 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" in a panel of blade drawings with it termed "pandour point'. This is quite frankly the only time I have seen the term used to describe this particular type of blade point.
This refers to the auxiliary troops of the Austrian army c.1750s who were mostly from the Balkans and Hungary and wore exotic Oriental style dress as well as edged weapons and were termed 'pandours'.

As mentioned also, this feature on blades was notably used in Solingen blades of that time period, and Solingen (Germany) furnished many if not most British blades up until the end of the 18th century. At this time by c. 1800, England was developing official sword patterns (M1796) and officers though still having carte blanche in their chosen styles, were favoring other blade forms such as the quill back, and expanded point (yelman).

That is not to say that officers did not have this type of point, as there was an affinity for Continental styles, however, by 1800 it would be unusual in my opinion.

France however, had been using later versions of the 'pandour' units in their army at this time, and as I had noted, French artisans creating elaborate hilt designs and mounts seemed to produce this type of work on the saber posted.

As Victrix has noted, there seems to be unusual foliage included in the motif which may correspond to some of the colonial regions where the French were situated, which would include Egypt. As Richard notes, the cat without mane is as likely a lioness as a leopard, and variations of these type zoomorphic heads are indeed known in the Orient, primarily Ceylon (the kastane swords have was is known as a grotesque lions head, quite different from this).

I remain inclined to see this saber as probably French, made obviously for an officer, perhaps with motif celebrating the Egyptian campaigns as noted with other such swords described.

I do not have the necessary references to try to locate a possible match or similar example such as the lexicon of volumes by Christian Aries, but it is quite possibly found there. There is a magazine in France (or was) called "Le Hussard", and that may be a source.

The attached are first, a British horsemans saber c. 1755-60
Note the clipped point, the blade is German but mounted by British cutler.
Next is what is termed (loosely) a M1780 cavalry sword, again, the blade is with clipped point (style) but from Solingen.

While these are not of course the exact profile of the saber discussed, you can see the general effect.


With regard to this possibly being a British 'honor' saber, naturally that is possible. However it must be remembered how much cross influence between England and France there was, despite the fact that they were nominally 'at war' even when 'not actively on campaign' from 1790s until after Waterloo. The British officers sword of 1780s known as a spadroon with five ball hilt, was copied by the French in the opening years of the 19th century and termed ' l'Anglaise'. Officers swords were often artistically made often by commission or as presentation swords as the 'honor' sabers.............these are a most esoteric field with far more detailed research needed.

[Jim McDougall]

Here is a French saber of the period, note the profile of the 'clipped point'.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard R.

I have searched for a comparable sabre grip on a French sabre, without success. Specially to note is that sabre hilt is distinguishingly formed as a lioness. This seems unusual, as otherwise lions (with manes) seem to be seen as pommels on sabre or sword hilts.

Am I correct in assuming that this mount and the decoration as well as the outline of the blade do not point to a British sabre? This even though sabre hilts with lion heads and serpents on the guard are known on English honour sabres for the beginning of the 19th century.

If we are talking about the Lloyds Patriotic Fund swords which were issued 1803-09 basically and most seem focused on Trafalgar, these have themes oriented around Greek mythology presumably meant allegorically.
I found an instance of a serpent, which was on the scabbard, and any of the lion heads were with mane, as the British lion in heraldic context. Another sword of 1804 had a serpent entwined on the knuckleguard, with the low relief lion head (presumably the Nemean lion) with flowing mane.

I consulted "Trafalgar Swords of Honor" , Derek Spalding, in "Arms & Armor Annual", Vol. I, 1973, pp.258-265/.

Also, "Trafalgar Tokens", Leslie Southwick, in "Royal Armouries", Vol. 2, #2, 2005, shows another sword with hilt having the lion head and entwined snake theme, again, lion with mane, and very low relief.

While these are of course suggestive that this sword might fall into this group of swords, which seem to have had a great deal of individuality, the other indicators of blade and of course the 'lioness' head still lead away from British. It would seem the British always favored the flowing mane.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard R.

I have searched for a comparable sabre grip on a French sabre, without success. Specially to note is that sabre hilt is distinguishingly formed as a lioness. This seems unusual, as otherwise lions (with manes) seem to be seen as pommels on sabre or sword hilts.

Am I correct in assuming that this mount and the decoration as well as the outline of the blade do not point to a British sabre? This even though sabre hilts with lion heads and serpents on the guard are known on English honour sabres for the beginning of the 19th century.

The British 'honor' sabers seem to have had the cutler's name RICHARD TEED engraved on the scabbard, with one exception, J.SALTER, also engraved in the same manner.
The blades were inscribed to the recipient.
Am I correct that neither of these features occur on this saber?

[Bryce]

G'day Richard,
Sorry I am a bit late to this discussion. It all sounds a bit mysterious. Without seeing the blade decoration, it certainly looks a lot more French than British. The blade design with that clipped point is more of a French trait than British, (although as Jim pointed out you do get British blades with this as well). The scabbard is very French looking. I haven't seen a hilt exactly like this before, but have seen plenty of sculpted "one-off" hilts like this on British swords.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Richard R.]

Thank you very much for the interesting and profound hints and contributions.

The scabbard has no signature. The picture below shows a section of the blade decoration.

P.S. I must admit that it is not easy for me to write in English and I hope that my thoughts and contributions are understandable enough. I would like to apologise in advance for any misunderstandings.