gorgrian Khevsur "shashka"

Kubur · 4th July 2021, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is a lot of material, bit I think salient in the understanding of the curiously angled hilts on these Georgian (and Tatar) sabers.

OMG you're a guru Jim.I think it's very salient in the understanding of the sword posted and I hope that other members will enjoy reading your prose as i do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Kubur,
My reading is that the yelman would assist in cutting, attempting to bring forward the centre of percussion, quill point blades were a feature on some European blades to try and get the best of both worlds cut and thrust. Photo of a British quill point heavy cavalry sabre first quarter 19thC.

Thanks Norman, I didn't know these quill point swords. For me, the yelman provides two sharp edges for thrust as by definition sabers have only one sharp edge. You have some daggers with the same shape too.

David R · 4th July 2021, 12:02 PM

The "quill point" on a George IV 1822 patt. NCO sword. In this case I thinks it's to aid the thrust. These 1822 NCO swords retained the fullered blade with a quill point until the end of the pattern being in use, quite distinct from the commissioned officers version

Norman McCormick · 4th July 2021, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

The "quill point" on a George IV 1822 patt. NCO sword. In this case I thinks it's to aid the thrust. These 1822 NCO swords retained the fullered blade with a quill point until the end of the pattern being in use, quite distinct from the commissioned officers version

Hi,
Quill points survived in Infantry swords, e.g. this French quill point 1845/55 pattern infantry sword of mine is dated 1915 and yes I would think this was to give strength to the point. In the case of cavalry swords I would suggest the original idea was to bring forward the centre of percussion to give the best optimum cut and reach. There is no doubt in my mind that a yelman originally intended to better serve the cut, even British 1796 L.C. sabres have a 'pseudo yelman' in that the blade is wider at the tip and these blades were well known for their cutting ability. Some yelmans even have a weighted section see the photograph of an Austrian sabre of mine which does not have a sharpened back edge, there is no doubt a fashionable element to this sword but believe me it's still a limb remover. A lot of yelmans are double edged which no doubt helps in the thrust but it also helps for upward/backward cuts on horseback. I have a Wilkinson P1821 cavalry officers sword on which the CoP is marked on the spine of the blade and the spearpoint is sharpened on both sides. No doubt fashion contributed to a degree the continued use of the quill point into the 20thC and the yelman on European swords of the 19thC.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2021, 10:19 PM

Kubur, I thank you so much for such kind words.

Regarding the yelman, as I noted, its original purpose in the slashing sabers of the 17th and 18th century was to add weight (kinetic energy) to the cut.

As Norman and David have further explained, as the importance of the thrust became well recognized, there were efforts to utilize the point widening with sharpened edges on both sides, what is known as a clipped point in most sabers and single edged swords.

With the widened point (yelman) on the Turkish swords, which are too wide for any thrust penetration, these provide cutting surface for a back stroke, a cut made at the end of another with a turn of the wrist, simply in reverse.

The 'quill points' were popular in the period of innovation with British swords, from the time of the 'sword scandals' of 1780s until the 1820s, where the
new blades had spear points but still key cutting edge.

With the 1796 swords, while the light cavalry had the heavy 'psuedo yelman' Norman mentions (called a hatchet point)....the straight heavy cavalry swords also had a curve at the point of 'hatchet' form, but not widened.

When the 'Scots Greys' were being sent to Belgium in what became the famed Battle of Waterloo, they were ordered to grind down the points of their swords to a spear point. We may presume this was in response to the recognition of the importance of the thrust, however, the swords still in action, were used in hacking cuts only during the battle.

4th July 2021, 12:02 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,119	The "quill point" on a George IV 1822 patt. NCO sword. In this case I thinks it's to aid the thrust. These 1822 NCO swords retained the fullered blade with a quill point until the end of the pattern being in use, quite distinct from the commissioned officers version Attached Images

4th July 2021, 10:19 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Kubur, I thank you so much for such kind words. Regarding the yelman, as I noted, its original purpose in the slashing sabers of the 17th and 18th century was to add weight (kinetic energy) to the cut. As Norman and David have further explained, as the importance of the thrust became well recognized, there were efforts to utilize the point widening with sharpened edges on both sides, what is known as a clipped point in most sabers and single edged swords. With the widened point (yelman) on the Turkish swords, which are too wide for any thrust penetration, these provide cutting surface for a back stroke, a cut made at the end of another with a turn of the wrist, simply in reverse. The 'quill points' were popular in the period of innovation with British swords, from the time of the 'sword scandals' of 1780s until the 1820s, where the new blades had spear points but still key cutting edge. With the 1796 swords, while the light cavalry had the heavy 'psuedo yelman' Norman mentions (called a hatchet point)....the straight heavy cavalry swords also had a curve at the point of 'hatchet' form, but not widened. When the 'Scots Greys' were being sent to Belgium in what became the famed Battle of Waterloo, they were ordered to grind down the points of their swords to a spear point. We may presume this was in response to the recognition of the importance of the thrust, however, the swords still in action, were used in hacking cuts only during the battle.