Kris naga

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2021, 10:42 PM

Jean, I've spent a lot of time looking at your photos, I am still not prepared to get too positive about origin, but one thing does really stick out like a sore thumb. The greneng. This is a really old style of greneng. I cannot accept that the keris itself is old, so the greneng is a recent copy --- recent in keris terms, not in terms of yesterday's dinner. Do we know anywhere that has used this greneng style at any time during the last couple of hundred years?

I cannot think of anywhere, I've only ever seen this greneng on really old keris.

How about you?

The other thing that must be considered, & that has not yet been addressed, is the form of the sirah cecak.

The carving of the gandhik is clumsy, to say the least, it does not reflect even a similar degree of skill to the carving of the naga itself. I've seen this clumsy gandhik work on keris from the period immediately before & after WWII that were made in Jogja, I knew the son of the man who had made them before WWII and the son also made a few in the 1950's. The son died around 20 years ago.

This keris is an open question, I suggest that we should keep the details in mind until we find a signpost.

David · 25th June 2021, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The carving of the gandhik is clumsy, to say the least, it does not reflect even a similar degree of skill to the carving of the naga itself.

Even enlarging the images on my computer screen i am afraid that these photos don't have a high enough resolution to really see the work well enough to draw solid conclusions, if any are even possible. But given the difference in the quality if carving skills between the gandik and the naga, is it possible that this naga was added to an older keris at a later period?

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2021, 09:25 PM

Anything is always possible David, but I do not believe that this is an old blade, on my monitor I can clearly see chisel marks & file marks in the body of the blade. Everything is too crisp and too robust.

But forgetting the old blade idea, why could the blade not be the work of several people? This is common now and it was also the case in times past. Very often the man who is credited with production of a keris is the guide & quality control, different workers will have skill in one area or another of production, and then there are trainees.

We're talking here about the sculpting of a blade, but this also applies in smithing work, it does & did in Jawa, and also in Western societies. In England in the days when the smith was Mister Fixit, not all smiths were equal, there was often only a single smith in a village who was recognised as the man to go for any welding work, not all smiths could complete large or difficult welds, the work was sub-contracted to the specialist.

It is no different with keris production and weapons production in general. We see the object, we talk to the man who claims authorship, but there could be half a dozen other craftsmen behind that "author".

When I was doing a lot of damascus work I made a lot of knife blades that I sold to other makers, and not just local Australian makers. I never put a maker's mark on my work. During all the time I was making & selling to other makers only one other maker credited me with production of the blade. This did not annoy me in the slightest, I was just doing common work and getting paid for it. Why should I complain about not getting free advertising?

Jean · 26th June 2021, 08:59 AM

The naga does not seem to have been added but carved from the blade itself, the chiselling is not perfect indeed, and the filing marks on the edges were made for removing the superficial rust. I plan to ship the blade to Solo for cleaning and warangan so we may better see the carving and pamor details.
BTW I checked my reference books but could not find any similar blade (style of naga, greneng, ganja), but I vaguely remember a discussion by Gustav about this style of greneng?
The blade is only 33 cm long.
Regards

David · 26th June 2021, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

BTW I checked my reference books but could not find any similar blade (style of naga, greneng, ganja), but I vaguely remember a discussion by Gustav about this style of greneng?

Jean, is this the thread you were thinking about?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=gustav%27s

Jean · 26th June 2021, 07:52 PM

Yes David, thank you!

24th June 2021, 10:42 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, I've spent a lot of time looking at your photos, I am still not prepared to get too positive about origin, but one thing does really stick out like a sore thumb. The greneng. This is a really old style of greneng. I cannot accept that the keris itself is old, so the greneng is a recent copy --- recent in keris terms, not in terms of yesterday's dinner. Do we know anywhere that has used this greneng style at any time during the last couple of hundred years? I cannot think of anywhere, I've only ever seen this greneng on really old keris. How about you? The other thing that must be considered, & that has not yet been addressed, is the form of the sirah cecak. The carving of the gandhik is clumsy, to say the least, it does not reflect even a similar degree of skill to the carving of the naga itself. I've seen this clumsy gandhik work on keris from the period immediately before & after WWII that were made in Jogja, I knew the son of the man who had made them before WWII and the son also made a few in the 1950's. The son died around 20 years ago. This keris is an open question, I suggest that we should keep the details in mind until we find a signpost.

25th June 2021, 09:25 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Anything is always possible David, but I do not believe that this is an old blade, on my monitor I can clearly see chisel marks & file marks in the body of the blade. Everything is too crisp and too robust. But forgetting the old blade idea, why could the blade not be the work of several people? This is common now and it was also the case in times past. Very often the man who is credited with production of a keris is the guide & quality control, different workers will have skill in one area or another of production, and then there are trainees. We're talking here about the sculpting of a blade, but this also applies in smithing work, it does & did in Jawa, and also in Western societies. In England in the days when the smith was Mister Fixit, not all smiths were equal, there was often only a single smith in a village who was recognised as the man to go for any welding work, not all smiths could complete large or difficult welds, the work was sub-contracted to the specialist. It is no different with keris production and weapons production in general. We see the object, we talk to the man who claims authorship, but there could be half a dozen other craftsmen behind that "author". When I was doing a lot of damascus work I made a lot of knife blades that I sold to other makers, and not just local Australian makers. I never put a maker's mark on my work. During all the time I was making & selling to other makers only one other maker credited me with production of the blade. This did not annoy me in the slightest, I was just doing common work and getting paid for it. Why should I complain about not getting free advertising?

26th June 2021, 08:59 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The naga does not seem to have been added but carved from the blade itself, the chiselling is not perfect indeed, and the filing marks on the edges were made for removing the superficial rust. I plan to ship the blade to Solo for cleaning and warangan so we may better see the carving and pamor details. BTW I checked my reference books but could not find any similar blade (style of naga, greneng, ganja), but I vaguely remember a discussion by Gustav about this style of greneng? The blade is only 33 cm long. Regards

26th June 2021, 07:52 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yes David, thank you!