Philippine Sword?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Why does the pommel have a human face?

I don't know, but I do know that it would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs. Maybe it represented the owner of the sugar factory where the original owner of this pedang stood guard at the entry gate.

It is very easy to get caught up in impossible beliefs when one does not have a very good knowledge of the society, history & culture of the places that produce various artefacts.

Well, no. Why do you think that the human face would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs?

Islamic weapons are full of animals and human representations. What you wrote is a common belief about Muslims but it is not true. Human and animal representations are only forbidden in mosques.


So yes this short sword could be for Muslims, could be for Europeans, and could be for Hindus because as far I know no one here wrote something that proved anything. Collectors feelings are good but I prefer facts.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, no. Why do you think that the human face would not be there if this dress was put on the blade of a person of Islamic beliefs?

Islamic weapons are full of animals and human representations. What you wrote is a common belief about Muslims but it is not true. Human and animal representations are only forbidden in mosques.


So yes this short sword could be for Muslims, could be for Europeans, and could be for Hindus because as far I know no one here wrote something that proved anything. Collectors feelings are good but I prefer facts.

Very interesting, so this idea that Islamic material culture only forbids representations of humans and animals in Mosques is a proven fact.
Does this apply to both Shi'a and Sunni, as well as all the Schools and Factions of each Faith and Following, which seem to be quite diverse.
I am of course curious about how your comment can be so general in such a complex topic.
Also, how is it proven to be universal in the entire Muslim Faith? Is this written as such, and observed by the entire Faith? Are there instances where these depictions are allowed outside of Mosques?

I agree on symbolism, and in the observations on art. As someone who has been intrigued by art and symbolism most of my life, I have studied as much as I can on potential meanings and such symbolism in many areas, and there are indeed times where a presumed idea of such, could not be proven, and in fact may well have just been aesthetic.

I also agree that facts are paramount when at hand, but in the absence of them, profound experience of those who have spent years, decades in a specialized field, can present compelling evidence.

[A. G. Maisey]

Kubur, I thank you for your very knowledgeable and perceptive comments, I believe you are expert in your own field and I have absolutely no desire at all to challenge your deep knowledge in this field.

However, I do have a very limited understanding of Javanese society, culture, anthropology, art and history, I qualify my understanding as "very limited" because I have only been involved in study of Jawa for about 60 or so years, and in truth, that is just not long enough to have a complete & thorough understanding of the things in which I have an interest.

My Javanese mentors have been palace armourers (empu) for the Kraton Surakarta Hadiningrat, and my association with these men lasted in one case for 15 years, and in the other case for around 40 years. Apart from these two men I have had long professional and personal association with a number of artists & craftsmen & dealers in the field of tosan aji for about 50 years.

When we come to consider the pedang that is the subject of this thread the fact of the matter is that I sold it to Mr. McDougal in the first place, and there is absolutely no doubt at all in my mind as to what this particular sword is.

I have seen many similar items over the years, and identification of it is about as difficult for me as the identification of a Toyota motor vehicle might be for some other people:- the Toyota has certain identifying characteristics, things like the names on the rear of the vehicle & badges on the front. For somebody in my position this pedang also has identifying characteristics.

Some things can be beliefs, other things can be fact. In the case of this pedang I am not talking about what my beliefs may be, I am talking about fact. Whether you or anybody else wishes to accept that fact is completely your choice.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kubur, I thank you for your very knowledgeable and perceptive comments, I believe you are expert in your own field and I have absolutely no desire at all to challenge your deep knowledge in this field.

Whether you or anybody else wishes to accept that fact is completely your choice.

Hi, I'm no expert in Indonesian weapons, clearly you are! I accept any conclusion based on empirical experience and argumented by facts. And I have a simple question for you, maybe I'm mistaken but it seems to me that these societies are extremely symbolic, just to mention Keris for example. So I'm very sceptical if someone says that these two faces are just two faces.

60 years, Jesus Christ...
:-)

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Kubur, you're absolutely correct, this sword was produced in Jawa, and Javanese society and culture is very symbolic in nature, but this particular sword was not produced in accordance with Javanese guidelines, it was produced, or rather dressed, for a European client, this dress is colonial dress, not the type of dress that would have been on the blade originally.

I do not think the faces have no purpose, but that purpose was not related to any Javanese symbolism, it is most likely related to the employer of the man who would have worn this sword, in other words, his "Lord", probably on occasion addressed as "Sinuhun", and perhaps a little bit mockingly.

A powerful European master, and clearly a benevolent one, indicated by his broad smile, would have some protective value and would be a constant reminder to the wearer of who paid his wages and provided for his family.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Kubur, you're absolutely correct, this sword was produced in Jawa, and Javanese society and culture is very symbolic in nature, but this particular sword was not produced in accordance with Javanese guidelines, it was produced, or rather dressed, for a European client, this dress is colonial dress, not the type of dress that would have been on the blade originally.

I do not think the faces have no purpose, but that purpose was not related to any Javanese symbolism, it is most likely related to the employer of the man who would have worn this sword, in other words, his "Lord", probably on occasion addressed as "Sinuhun", and perhaps a little bit mockingly.

A powerful European master, and clearly a benevolent one, indicated by his broad smile, would have some protective value and would be a constant reminder to the wearer of who paid his wages and provided for his family.

An absolutely wonderful explanation and well supported by noting that the style of dress in not being consistent with typical Javanese weapons of this type.

Here I would note that theology, religion and metaphysical symbolism is not very well supported by 'empirical evidence'. This is one reason why the study and explanation of weapons decoration and motif has long been excluded in academic material.

The only proven 'facts' are the comparison of similar motif or symbols occurring on numerous examples, and often the provenance (if supported) and preponderance of occurrence in certain regions or context.

As I mentioned, I have long been fascinated by symbolisms in arms and armor motif, elements and markings, so I agree in being a bit reticent in accepting that a strategically placed element or figure is simply randomly chosen.

As well noted here by Mr. Maisey, just as in art, there is a degree of character in the choice of demeanor or presentation of elements in the motif on a weapon. One cannot look at many of the figures in European blade markings without seeing them as 'cartoonish' (many man in the moon, and other Tarot style cosmological figures).
Just as Ian earlier suggested, and clearly well placed as confirmed by Mr. Maisey, the European figure with the ruffled surround seemed profoundly European.

I would like to thank everybody here for the excellent discussion, which has brought this weapon I have had for many years, and from Mr. Maisey, into wonderful new perspective and appreciation.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Kubur, you're absolutely correct, this sword was produced in Jawa, and Javanese society and culture is very symbolic in nature, but this particular sword was not produced in accordance with Javanese guidelines, it was produced, or rather dressed, for a European client, this dress is colonial dress, not the type of dress that would have been on the blade originally.
I do not think the faces have no purpose, but that purpose was not related to any Javanese symbolism

I greatly respect your experience and opinion.

And I personaly don't know the meaning and symbolic of these faces.

But it is not because I don't know that I will accept any belief. As for the Toyota, I had many Toyota's, but I'm not a mechanic.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

it is most likely related to the employer of the man who would have worn this sword, in other words, his "Lord", probably on occasion addressed as "Sinuhun", and perhaps a little bit mockingly.

A powerful European master, and clearly a benevolent one, indicated by his broad smile, would have some protective value and would be a constant reminder to the wearer of who paid his wages and provided for his family.

In my opinion, the text above is a personal narrative, your (nice) story about this sword, but we do not have the story of this sword.

Maybe, the most important is not what we see, but what we believe...

[A. G. Maisey]

I did have a previous comment in this spot, but I decided it was a waste of space.

I have stated my professional opinion, and in this field, I am a professional with a pretty hefty resume.

In the context of this discussion my opinion is a statement of advice on a matter that relates to my profession.

I have offered my advice as a gesture of goodwill, and free of charge.

Accept my opinion or reject it, it is entirely up to you, and of no interest at all to me whether it is accepted or not.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I greatly respect your experience and opinion.

And I personaly don't know the meaning and symbolic of these faces.

But it is not because I don't know that I will accept any belief. As for the Toyota, I had many Toyota's, but I'm not a mechanic.



In my opinion, the text above is a personal narrative, your (nice) story about this sword, but we do not have the story of this sword.

Maybe, the most important is not what we see, but what we believe...

As agreed, it is understandable to have differences in thoughts, belief and opinion, and while it does not seem worthwhile to drag out what has become a philosophical debate, it seems important to note something.

In investigative research a theory may often be presented in the form of an analogy, for all intents and purposes, a 'story'(though emphatically I would not choose that term). It is used to illustrate a possible situation based on factual data at hand (i.e.physical or tangible evidence) and used to create a fluid image of possible occurrence.

Sometimes these can be researched more specifically, and more facts or evidence can be added to increase the probability. However, often there is no tangible evidence to be had, and what remains is a theory which can range from reasonable plausibility to 'compelling' plausibility.

Here it is important to note that a theory is just that, and in the absence of further evidence which cannot prove or disprove the theory, the reader has their own choice of what to believe. However it is important as well not to discount or dismiss an analogy summarily as it is not an assertion, but just a theory.

I just read an amazing article in which sword blades with markings which should not have been on them (Klingenthal markings on British sword blades in the Napoleonic period). The author presents a wonderfully detailed and highly plausible theory, based on known FACTS of circumstances of the time.
Equally, we are presently examining a Japanese tachi sword which has a startling use of a European (probably British) blade. This pairing is more than unlikely, almost seemingly impossible, but we present theories (potentially analogies) of how this might have occurred.

In studying the history of arms, just as in all history, it is the use of what is known as 'historical detection' or ratiocination, deductive reasoning.
Analogies, or presumptive theories are not 'stories' (created for entertainment) but as illustrative tools used by worthy scholars in the study of a problem and possible explanations. To portray them otherwise is less than respectful .

Im just sayin' and expressing my personal opinion based on the many years I have researched history through arms and armor.

Meanwhile, thanks to everybody for a great discussion and for providing a wonderful understanding of the sword I posted here.