gorgrian Khevsur "shashka"

Rick · 15th June 2021, 02:43 AM

This form looks like it would be prone to turning in the hand during use with that canted hilt.

ariel · 16th June 2021, 04:55 AM

These swords usually are exhibited under the moniker “ Kabiani Khmali”, sword with a skirt.
In fact, their real name is unknown; the one we call them now was invented in the early 1900 or around, long after they went out of fashion, just on the basis of their appearance. And it stuck:-)

What is interesting about them is :
A. They were worn edge up
B. They had no guard

Bakradze and Kiziria view them as members of the “ shashka-like” sabers.

ariel · 16th June 2021, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

This form looks like it would be prone to turning in the hand during use with that canted hilt.

I am not sure: their grips are not round, but rectangular.
This was one of the three ways Georgians prevented the turning problem: the other two were a grip that was oval, and the last one was gradual widening of the grip from the pommel to the crossguard.
I never had the privilege to own or even handle a sword with the first and the last variety, but shashkas have oval grips as a rule and most of the kindjals have rectangular grips.

Oliver Pinchot · 1st July 2021, 06:53 PM

I owned one of these skirted sabers many years ago. The grip was of rectangular section and did not turn in the hand when it was swung, in fact, ergonomically, the form would be difficult to improve on. The blade was long, slightly expanding toward the distal end, with radiused, clipped tip. The scabbard was of the same type shown in the first image. It had a paper museum label on it attributing it in Russian to a Georgian general and dated in the 1820s. I don't remember his name now.

These swords were virtually all made in and around Tbilisi. At the minimum, none of the examples pictured in this thread can be attributed to Khevsuria.

dat_man · 2nd July 2021, 03:07 PM

As everyone else said those are not khevsur swords but western georgian imereti to be specific, and it was mostly nobility weapon used from horse back, in other words a cavalry sword which may explain the reason for the shape and the angle between the hilt and the blade.

I don't how much you know about using swords from horse back but basically it is about pointing your sword at the target "if you are going for a thrust" or lining your sword blade with the target "if you are going for a cut" moments before it reaches it and the power source for the attack would be the speed of the horse, so if we leave cutting for a side and focus on thrusting, being on a horse means you are higher than your target with a normal hilt that is in line with the blade you may need to bend your wrist to do the thrust but the problem with that is you may injure your wrist which is not something you would like to happen while fighting, with an angle similar to this you can keep your wrist in more straight with your arm which could prevent or reduce your injury, at least that is what I think.

We also see similar angle between hilts and blades in swords used by nomadic people wich used swords from horse back, and that is why I think that is the reason for such sword design

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2021, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dat_man

As everyone else said those are not khevsur swords but western georgian imereti to be specific, and it was mostly nobility weapon used from horse back, in other words a cavalry sword which may explain the reason for the shape and the angle between the hilt and the blade.

I don't how much you know about using swords from horse back but basically it is about pointing your sword at the target "if you are going for a thrust" or lining your sword blade with the target "if you are going for a cut" moments before it reaches it and the power source for the attack would be the speed of the horse, so if we leave cutting for a side and focus on thrusting, being on a horse means you are higher than your target with a normal hilt that is in line with the blade you may need to bend your wrist to do the thrust but the problem with that is you may injure your wrist which is not something you would like to happen while fighting, with an angle similar to this you can keep your wrist in more straight with your arm which could prevent or reduce your injury, at least that is what I think.

We also see similar angle between hilts and blades in swords used by nomadic people wich used swords from horse back, and that is why I think that is the reason for such sword design

This is a resounding analysis of combat from horseback! and I simply must ask where you attained this experience. While I did some fencing (a zillion years ago) and even some stage combat....none was ever 'mounted'.
As cavalry training with horses and swords ended before WWII in the military, no experience there was available either.

Regarding these swords and use in Khevsuria, it must be remembered that although there is a notable degree of diffusion throughout Georgian regions as Caucasian in general, however the Khevsurs are an animist people living extremely remotely in the Caucasian Mountains. I recall research on them back in the 90s, and there was precious little known of them. Other than the cursory material in Lebedynsky (in French) and Astvatsaturnian (in Russian), there was zero.
When I reached a public affairs official at the Soviet embassy in Washington to ask for information on Khevsurs, he acted like I was nuts, and never heard of such people.

What we have learned is that as remote as the Khevsurs were, there would of course be an incidental case of a 'novelty' weapon finding use in Khevsuria, there was no prevalence or preponderance of these there. Also, the Khevsurs were not particularly known for being mounted for combat (though the appearance of them fully armored in Tblisi in 1917 and mounted is noted in Halliburton's "Seven League Boots". )

Kubur · 2nd July 2021, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dat_man

A
We also see similar angle between hilts and blades in swords used by nomadic people wich used swords from horse back, and that is why I think that is the reason for such sword design

I agree 100% with you. It's a "push sword", and the hilts from Central Asia/ Turkic / nomadic populations have something in common. Early Ottoman and persian swords have also the same kind of hilts. Then if you look at Indian pata, they are too long and too heavy to be used by pedestrians, the transversal hilt and protective guard were also very good for charges, and very protective for wrists.

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2021, 11:07 PM

I have to ask, what is meant by push sword Kubur, does this mean 'thrust'?
The nomadic tribes of the Steppes used the 'draw cut' in their sabers of course, but the Ottomans (and I believe Persians) had straight thrusting swords (called mec) used for the thrust. These same type swords were heavy thrust swords which were worn under the saddle with narrow blades called estoc (colloquially tuck).

The Tatars had sabers often known as 'ordynka' which has a deeply canted pommel in this manner in many cases. Many of these had narrow needle points, which I always thought were for thrusting through mail. However I think slashing cuts were favored with these? The rest were typical saber blades.

I do not recall the thrust swords called 'mec' having 'canted' (angled) hilts but would welcome knowing of that character in examples.

With the 'pata' these were primarily transverse grip large daggers (katars) from South India which evolved into the well known 'pata' sword. While the later evolved 'katar' is seen with 'armor piercing' (bolstered point)blade, the katar and the pata, were regarded as 'slashing weapons'.

In references it seems that the Mahrattas , who it seems were the early users of the pata, were against the thrust, and used the pata in slashing cuts. In more modern use of the pata ceremonially they use two in a kind of windmill fashion in demonstrations.
In Indian artwork, mounted riders, Mughal and Rajput are seen, but it does not seem these were used in the thrust, particularly as Rajputs typically fought dismounted.

The basket guard of the pata did provide good hand protection, and acted as a combined vambrace and gauntlet, but I think the use was in slashing cuts.

Kubur · 3rd July 2021, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have to ask, what is meant by push sword Kubur, does this mean 'thrust'?

Sorry Jim, I should have said thrust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The rest were typical saber blades.

In fact, I was just refering to the sword posted, but also to the similarities with Persian and Ottoman hilts from 15-16th c., even if they had typical saber blades, so maybe two uses, slashing and thrust, if I'm not mistaken yelman is done for thrust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In Indian artwork, mounted riders, Mughal and Rajput are seen, but it does not seem these were used in the thrust, particularly as Rajputs typically fought dismounted.

The basket guard of the pata did provide good hand protection, and acted as a combined vambrace and gauntlet, but I think the use was in slashing cuts.

For the pata, I know that I'll be alone on this one... as all specialists and collectors think that they were used in slashing cuts. I don't believe in that. Were katar and rapiers used in slashing cuts? I have a pata, it's too long and too heavy for slashing cuts, plus as you wrote in Indian artwork, mounted riders, Mughal and Rajput are seen with pata.

15th June 2021, 02:43 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	This form looks like it would be prone to turning in the hand during use with that canted hilt.

16th June 2021, 04:55 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These swords usually are exhibited under the moniker “ Kabiani Khmali”, sword with a skirt. In fact, their real name is unknown; the one we call them now was invented in the early 1900 or around, long after they went out of fashion, just on the basis of their appearance. And it stuck:-) What is interesting about them is : A. They were worn edge up B. They had no guard Bakradze and Kiziria view them as members of the “ shashka-like” sabers.

1st July 2021, 06:53 PM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 464	I owned one of these skirted sabers many years ago. The grip was of rectangular section and did not turn in the hand when it was swung, in fact, ergonomically, the form would be difficult to improve on. The blade was long, slightly expanding toward the distal end, with radiused, clipped tip. The scabbard was of the same type shown in the first image. It had a paper museum label on it attributing it in Russian to a Georgian general and dated in the 1820s. I don't remember his name now. These swords were virtually all made in and around Tbilisi. At the minimum, none of the examples pictured in this thread can be attributed to Khevsuria.

2nd July 2021, 03:07 PM	#5
dat_man Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 16	As everyone else said those are not khevsur swords but western georgian imereti to be specific, and it was mostly nobility weapon used from horse back, in other words a cavalry sword which may explain the reason for the shape and the angle between the hilt and the blade. I don't how much you know about using swords from horse back but basically it is about pointing your sword at the target "if you are going for a thrust" or lining your sword blade with the target "if you are going for a cut" moments before it reaches it and the power source for the attack would be the speed of the horse, so if we leave cutting for a side and focus on thrusting, being on a horse means you are higher than your target with a normal hilt that is in line with the blade you may need to bend your wrist to do the thrust but the problem with that is you may injure your wrist which is not something you would like to happen while fighting, with an angle similar to this you can keep your wrist in more straight with your arm which could prevent or reduce your injury, at least that is what I think. We also see similar angle between hilts and blades in swords used by nomadic people wich used swords from horse back, and that is why I think that is the reason for such sword design

2nd July 2021, 11:07 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	I have to ask, what is meant by push sword Kubur, does this mean 'thrust'? The nomadic tribes of the Steppes used the 'draw cut' in their sabers of course, but the Ottomans (and I believe Persians) had straight thrusting swords (called mec) used for the thrust. These same type swords were heavy thrust swords which were worn under the saddle with narrow blades called estoc (colloquially tuck). The Tatars had sabers often known as 'ordynka' which has a deeply canted pommel in this manner in many cases. Many of these had narrow needle points, which I always thought were for thrusting through mail. However I think slashing cuts were favored with these? The rest were typical saber blades. I do not recall the thrust swords called 'mec' having 'canted' (angled) hilts but would welcome knowing of that character in examples. With the 'pata' these were primarily transverse grip large daggers (katars) from South India which evolved into the well known 'pata' sword. While the later evolved 'katar' is seen with 'armor piercing' (bolstered point)blade, the katar and the pata, were regarded as 'slashing weapons'. In references it seems that the Mahrattas , who it seems were the early users of the pata, were against the thrust, and used the pata in slashing cuts. In more modern use of the pata ceremonially they use two in a kind of windmill fashion in demonstrations. In Indian artwork, mounted riders, Mughal and Rajput are seen, but it does not seem these were used in the thrust, particularly as Rajputs typically fought dismounted. The basket guard of the pata did provide good hand protection, and acted as a combined vambrace and gauntlet, but I think the use was in slashing cuts.