Smallsword Duelling

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Considering the swords they use in those two clips - both with knuckle-bows - it still seems likely mine is a duelling piece due to the blade. I've been a fan of this film since its first release. I've read endless criticisms, both positive and negative but I remain captivated.

Carradine didn't lose half a leg and a whole arm and still keep going, just a little puncture wound and he was out for the count. Realism is so refreshing sometimes.

I read that, during the Peninsular War, British medics remarked on the invariable deaths of British soldiers compared to the survival rate of the French, and postulated that the thrust was invariably more deadly than the cut. This doesn't compute for me as the British would be using the 1796 pattern, right?
I am out of my depth here. Any help gratefully accepted.

p.s. Ridley Scott is a Tyneside lad like me.

The cut vs. thrust note was quite accurate and the thrust invariably did result in fatality mostly as the puncture of organs, hemorrhaging and peritonitis resulted. Napoleon was said to have called to his men riding into battle, "give point!, thrust".
While clearly his cuirassiers used straight thrusting blades, the light cavalry also had means of thrusting with saber from a high tierce posture and thrusting downward.
The British indeed had the M1796 saber which had a broadly radiused 'hatchet point' which was obviously useless for anything but chopping, hence many references referring to them 'chopping wood'. Napoleon however declared them barbarous, for the ghastly wounding power they had.

The thrust was eventually determined to have the most combative power and potential for fatal wounds, which was what brought the discussion of the M1913 Patton sword (despite its outlier circumstance chronologically here) to the fore. It was the culmination of well over a century of debate and trial over which was best, cut vs. thrust, thus the proper close to the combat sword in actual use.

Thanks for the note on the Dutch sword length, and I see what you mean.
On a duelling epee, there is no need for knuckleguard.

[Hotspur]

https://smallswordproject.files.word...ie_26_1780.pdf

A worthwhile free read/download, albeit in French.

The paperback folio book is an inexpensive find and worthy of any shelf for swords.


https://www.biblio.com/book/fabrique...t/d/1357685623

Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

Just viewed the movie scenes from "The Duelists" (1977), which was a fantastic movie! one of my favorites. Actually, I saw it in the theater in 1977 when it came out, and I was actually talking fencing classes at the time. I was so enthralled, I convinced the theater manager to give me one of the posters !!
I had it framed and it hung in my den for many years.

At the time it was being filmed I read many accounts of the movie being made and the difficulties and efforts toward the sword combat scenes' realism. It is not hard to see why the film in these respects was so well done.
I recall when the film ended (I was in Long Beach, Calif.) the audience not only clapped, but cheered! and I heard people in the crowd yelling, "way to go Ridley!!!". It was an experience I'll never forget.

It is easy to 'armchair' criticize a movie, but while fencing does not constitute experience in 'dueling' obviously, the dynamics and physical exertion are profoundly more apparent. It must be remembered that 'duels' were not exactly with equally paired opponents, and often a man called out, even if not as experienced, would be forced to respond to protect his honor. The film shows the inherent reluctance to go into such futile confrontation, but doing so as compelled by that driving force.

The movie was based on a book by Joseph Conrad (1908), and based on true events and figures in the Napoleonic armies who did carry out ongoing duels as shown in the film. The cover painting on the book is Gericaults "French Officer Charging" and I had a print of this next to the 'Duelist' poster.

In the scene where they duel on horseback, the high tierce position of the sabers is shown. The scene with Keitel vs. the civilian they are armed with dueling epee's.