Small sword identification

M ELEY · 8th June 2021, 01:01 AM

Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc.

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12970.html

Kubur · 8th June 2021, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc.

Thank you Eley
I think you nailed it. Yes, a piece is missing and then confirms the date and identification.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2021, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc.

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12970.html

Capn, thank you for noticing this!!!! I totally missed the fixtures for that which is obviously missing. bonk!

fernando · 8th June 2021, 05:50 PM

How could i be so blind that didn't figure out that those 'studs' are the hinges for a folding guard. To my defence, i was betrayed by the angle of the picture

. Actually, i have even discussed these features a few years ago over my (ex) pattern 1806 Portuguese Cavalry officers sword.
OTOH, for what i knew of Spadroons (Espadões) from a local fellow collector, i would never realize Kubur's sword is also one of the kind.

.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2021, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

How could i be so blind that didn't figure out that those 'studs' are the hinges for a folding guard. To my defence, i was betrayed by the angle of the picture

. Actually, i have even discussed these features a few years ago over my (ex) pattern 1806 Portuguese Cavalry officers sword.
OTOH, for what i knew of Spadroons (Espadões) from a local fellow collector, i would never realize Kubur's sword is also one of the kind.

.

Well, that makes two of us Fernando! I didnt notice them at all, and I only knew of the 'spadroon's' from the 1786 pattern (which I had forgotten as well, good thing the Capn is aboard!) which I know only as c. 1790s in studying the five ball hilt aboout a zillion years ago.

Kubur · 8th June 2021, 06:21 PM

Please, forgive my ignorance
But what is the advantage to have a folding guard???

fernando · 8th June 2021, 06:45 PM

The folded guard becoming a more 'flat' surface, it leans more smoothly against your hip.
I recall one solution with the 1796 British heavy cavalry sword. As the guard was born unfoldable and harassed troops, the Ordnance decided to cut off (trim) part of it; this before the battle of Waterloo; after which the 'new version' was named.
Also their blade points were reviewed, as may be seen, but is another story.

.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2021, 07:13 PM

As Fernando has noted, the full guard was often seen as a problem with chafing (of the uniform) so these were cut down, or as noted, the folding guard was created.
After Waterloo, the M1796 hilts were cut down for 'presumably' this reason, which is often notable in identifying post Waterloo use of these.
It seems odd though, as in these times swords were worn low slung ,the reason for the large drag on the chape of the scabbard), so whether hanging over the saddle mounted, or dragging when on foot, how it would chafe uniform is puzzling.

With the blades, actually before Waterloo, the Scots Greys were ordered to grind down the hatchet points (as in Fernandos illustration)on their swords to a spear point, this being an identifying factor in recognizing pre Waterloo modification. This was actually ordered just before they shipped out to Belgium.
The M1796 disc hilts did not remain in use long after Waterloo in 1815, as in 1821 a new hilt with sheet steel bowl guard was introduced.

8th June 2021, 05:50 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How could i be so blind that didn't figure out that those 'studs' are the hinges for a folding guard. To my defence, i was betrayed by the angle of the picture . Actually, i have even discussed these features a few years ago over my (ex) pattern 1806 Portuguese Cavalry officers sword. OTOH, for what i knew of Spadroons (Espadões) from a local fellow collector, i would never realize Kubur's sword is also one of the kind. . Attached Images

8th June 2021, 06:45 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The folded guard becoming a more 'flat' surface, it leans more smoothly against your hip. I recall one solution with the 1796 British heavy cavalry sword. As the guard was born unfoldable and harassed troops, the Ordnance decided to cut off (trim) part of it; this before the battle of Waterloo; after which the 'new version' was named. Also their blade points were reviewed, as may be seen, but is another story. . Attached Images

8th June 2021, 01:01 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12970.html

8th June 2021, 06:21 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Please, forgive my ignorance But what is the advantage to have a folding guard???

8th June 2021, 07:13 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,519	As Fernando has noted, the full guard was often seen as a problem with chafing (of the uniform) so these were cut down, or as noted, the folding guard was created. After Waterloo, the M1796 hilts were cut down for 'presumably' this reason, which is often notable in identifying post Waterloo use of these. It seems odd though, as in these times swords were worn low slung ,the reason for the large drag on the chape of the scabbard), so whether hanging over the saddle mounted, or dragging when on foot, how it would chafe uniform is puzzling. With the blades, actually before Waterloo, the Scots Greys were ordered to grind down the hatchet points (as in Fernandos illustration)on their swords to a spear point, this being an identifying factor in recognizing pre Waterloo modification. This was actually ordered just before they shipped out to Belgium. The M1796 disc hilts did not remain in use long after Waterloo in 1815, as in 1821 a new hilt with sheet steel bowl guard was introduced.