Bosnian Bichaq

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

notwithstanding the enormous response ....
I decided to leave it as it was and not to repair the broken part by filling / replacing the hole by new horn material.

Another nice Bosnian bichaq, pre Habsburg era is this one with a leather strap, 29 cm long

Hi

Why do you think your knife is Bosnian?

I have a small book about Balkan knives.

It is a nice book but 20% of the knives published are not from the Balkans, they are Turkish, Kurdish and North Africans.

Be carefull your post is turning like the Omani khanjar thread: a catamonologue or a monocatalogue...


Kind regards,
Kubur

[gp]

Why my friend?

Simple: based upon literature I quoted and my knowledge...

Before I joined this forum, to my big surprise, concering Bosnian cold weapons, I only read "I think" ....but hardly any comments based upon knowledge...
Nothing of books and publications like the ones I quoted ( between 1880 to the present day).

Try Kozo (270 pages and published in 2010! and in English...). If you would have consulted Kozo and the by my quoted sources, you would have known the answer and not have come up with a premature assumption...

Just check my contributions and the literature I mention. One might learn a little bit

FYI: many publications are not only from the former Yu(goslavia) but also Bulgaria and Romania. A lot in English but when not, the pics and name "Bosna" will tell you the answer.Even the ones in cyrillic...

Also the much refered Elgood here...got most of his Balkan knowledge from a Serbian lady who was and still is leading when it comes down to Balkan cold weapons knowledge: she wrote 3 books! Guess a few to no one here know her name

To give you one criterium: the decoration on top of the blade... But obviously that's not the only one, more criteria are present...

My knowledge on other arms is virtually zero, so I do cherish and treasure the comments as I do learn a lot but on Bosnian cold weapons I dare say few here can match my knowledge. No disrespect intended

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here. If that offends you, I am sorry and apologize for that inconvenience and shall refrain from entering further comments and leave it gladly up to you and other big shots to advise and judge on Balkan arms ☼☺☼ Nema problema as they say in Bosna

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by gp

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here.

Your thread is very useful and informative, we are all obsessed by something. No worries here...

But we are all the same and a forum is for discussion.

Being from Bosnia or the Balkans doesn't make you more knowledgeable than others.

Originally Posted by gp

Try Kozo (270 pages and published in 2010! and in English...). If you would have consulted Kozo and the by my quoted sources, you would have known the answer and not have come up with a premature assumption...

It is the book that I have Kozo!
It's a nice book but as I said 20% of the knives are not from the Balkans. So if it is your reference then you might be mistaken.

Originally Posted by gp

To give you one criterium: the decoration on top of the blade... But obviously that's not the only one, more criteria are present...

My knowledge on other arms is virtually zero, so I do cherish and treasure the comments as I do learn a lot but on Bosnian cold weapons

This is a good example, the decoration on top of the blade can be found in many countries of the Ottoman empire.

So as you wrote, your knowledge on other arms is virtually zero...
My friendly advice would be: read on other countries otherwise all you will see in the Balkans will be from the Balkans...
Many Russians and Caucasians are doing the same mistake.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Your thread is very useful and informative, we are all obsessed by something. No worries here...

But we are all the same and a forum is for discussion.

Being from Bosnia or the Balkans doesn't make you more knowledgeable than others.



It is the book that I have Kozo!
It's a nice book but as I said 20% of the knives are not from the Balkans. So if it is your reference then you might be mistaken.



This is a good example, the decoration on top of the blade can be found in many countries of the Ottoman empire.

So as you wrote, your knowledge on other arms is virtually zero...
My friendly advice would be: read on other countries otherwise all you will see in the Balkans will be from the Balkans...
Many Russians and Caucasians are doing the same mistake.

I am neither from Bosnia nor the Balkans, please do read my contributions before you judge...
again stop assuming & judging prematurely

Nor do you comment the other books and publications I mentioned ...
Pick out 1 item to prove you're correct.
Nice discussion technique for discrediting some one (actually 1 of the 9 manipulation techniques in psychology) but doesn't impress me ...

I leave the stage to you if that makes you feel good and a big boy

[Battara]

Guys I'm going to stop this right here.

It is one thing to debate the issues, it is another to get nasty and overreact. We are moving in that direction so I will call for a break and take a breath. Going any further in personal attacks or responses will bring consequences............

Thank you.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by gp

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here.

Thank you for the interesting information, sources and examples of Bosnian bichaqs that you share here.
It is always very interesting and useful to learn new things from a person who is specially and in depth dealing with a certain narrow topic, and it would probably be very good if the discussions in your topics were more active.
I will venture give the conversation some impetus:
I think that the decoration of the scabbard and handle of this knife a typical for Bosnian bichak zigzag hatching may refer it to this family.

[gp]

a nice piece of hand craft and art is this filigree (sterling) dagger belt buckle I recently purchased.

From filigree perspective it looks like Dalmatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin.
Also similar like the type of sterling brooch I found in Sarajevo, Kotor or Dubrovnik in the 1980ies .

This one looks the same, although the brooches were without the 2 dots on the grip. Looking close at the silver dots on the "bichaq" they might indicate as well a Caucasian origin like the grip of a kama / shalta / khanjali ...but these again do not have the curved blade as the Balkan bichaq or Ottoman handzjar... the dots could also be functional as a kind of support / firmness (which makes sense...)

Still a nice piece of art dating back to a wide period of 1880-1960 to hang above the Bosnian kama, bichaq and yataghan

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

I think the miniature dagger of the belt is not a Kama or Khanjar, I would say it is a Bebut. These daggers are similar to Kamas and Kindjals, but they have a curved blade.

Regards
Robin

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by gp

a nice piece of hand craft and art is this filigree (sterling) dagger belt buckle I recently purchased.

From filigree perspective it looks like Dalmatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin.
Also similar like the type of sterling brooch I found in Sarajevo, Kotor or Dubrovnik in the 1980ies .

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

[gp]

Originally Posted by mahratt

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

Bolshoj spassiba. Very nice pieces, especially the one in the link and last picture: beautiful !
Guess they all are 84 zolotniki?

And guess I must now buy a Russian dagger to go with it….
bozje moj….again spending money...dawaij dawaij, pasjli pasjli ….:-)

Question for advice:


I found this description:

"Bebut – curve Caucasian dagger, which became widely known in the early 20th century, when it was adopted by the Russian army. The dagger is different curved shape and large size.
The origin of the dagger .

Curved blades – the hallmark of the East. And bebut is no exception, since it is originally a traditional Caucasian dagger. The name of the blade “bebut” comes from the Turkic word, which means “thigh”.

It’s hard to say when the story of this dagger began. It was spread only in the early twentieth century, when it became part of the armament of the Russian army. Presumably, the “ancestor” of the blade of such a shape is a curve or Persian Ottoman dagger.

In the late 19th century dagger Bebut was in use among the Cossacks. If the flat dagger was armed with all without exception, the curved blade was chosen by the scouts, since the thin and long blade provided the convenience of carrying a cold weapon in any situation.

Bebut is officially known since 1840 as part of the uniform of the Kuban Cossacks, but its history is much older. In General, earlier called the Bebut any dagger with a curved end on the blade, while now under this name is understood as “Bebut” model 1907.
Bebut in the Russian army

Cossack Bebut came into the Russian army in 1907. At this time there is a need for more weapons to replace the authorized artillery pieces. A knife with Bebut was easier to wield than a sword, besides, its form is considerably easier.

In the first years of the Bebut armed with only the higher ranks, but beginning in 1909 artillery Bebut was made available to all military. Despite the lack of tradition use daggers in Russian army, curved blade quickly became an indispensable part of weaponry.

In subsequent years, on the choice of this dagger did not have to regret, because the curved blade proved itself as a cutting, chopping and as a weapon. This is due to the peculiarities of the blade, its shape and methods of sharpening."

My question concerns the mentioning of the Kuban Cossacks: would this dagger thus be different from the dagger of the Zaporozhian Cossacks?

If so: what dagger would the Zaporozhian Cossacks have and use ?

[G. Mansfield]

Here is one to add for the records, acquired a few weeks ago from a friend.

-Geoff

[gp]

Originally Posted by mahratt

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

next to the 2 buckles shown in the above reply by mahratt ( the 2 pictures again enclosed), I found a 3rd one / my 2nd which looks similar to the Caucasian one but without the name in ofcource Cyrillic.
Made in Niello silver - .875 (84 Zolotniki) with a 2nd Kokoshnik Moscow mark dating 1908-1917.

[gp]

bak 2 the bichaqs...


just bought this one. Lenght of a typical Sarajevo bichaq, the grip is a little more like a Yataghan but is not that rare to be seen either.

Strange is the fact that most Bosnian K.u.K made bichaqs (22-37 cm ones) have a long straight blade.
Only the "cutlery" type ( < 20 cm) ones have the Yataghan typical "curly" or "curved" or snakish shape blade.
And ofcourse the Yataghan themselves...
Also the decoration differs from the K.u.K. Habsburg period 1878-1918 ones and looks more like the Ottoman times art work from pre 1878
as can be seen in the bichaqs with Arab lettering.
So a kind of match / crossover? between two periods one might say perhaps ?

First time I encountered a Balkan and Bosnian bichaq with such a blade .

The scabbard is a "marriage" as it doesn't belong to this shape of blade.
No problem as I can use it for a “straight" blade bichaq without a scabbard.

But strange it is . Will post , if interest is there, more pics upon its arrival.

Your thoughts and comments please...?

thnx a lot!

Gunar