A 19th century American boarding pike

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2021, 05:09 PM

The nautical terminology is most definitely colorful and fascinating with these similes! adding the language element to the glossary truly does add further dimension.
I recall in numerous cases Fernando has described sword hilt elements, in one case where the hilt had resemblances to the horse bit and was described accordingly.
I suppose overall these kinds of descriptive terms are found in many types of descriptions, which makes etymology pretty intriguing.
There are some which I would leave alone, 'poop deck' ?

David R · 23rd May 2021, 09:54 PM

"Poop Deck" indeed! I find these conversations among the most entertaining and valuable elements of this site... and now you know why the Nihonto guys use Japanese vocabulary to describe a sword.

M ELEY · 24th May 2021, 02:03 AM

Ahh yes, the poop deck! Then you have the oddities of the fo'castle, the 'head' which is located at the bough/head of the ship but features the...ahem...bottom more! Captstans and in later naval jargon, brass monkeys. All very interesting. Don't even get me started on things like 'salmagundie' (a naval dish consisting of tinned/salted beef, dried pies, old bisquit complete with weevils all dumped in a sack and often beer or grog poured over it all. Yummy!)

Rick · 25th May 2021, 11:52 PM

Well mates, it was called the poop deck from the French for Stern; Poope
IIRC.

M ELEY · 27th May 2021, 06:10 AM

Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

fernando · 27th May 2021, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine...

A favourable zone in sailing ships, as the wind was almost always coming from either behind or to one side of the ship, so that everything was carried away.

Pyrard de Laval, a French navigator (1578-1623), gives a good account of the distinction between habits of crews and rules aboard from the different countries, taking Portuguese for comparison; even the differences between ships of the same nationality depending on their routes, big (huge) vessels to India being the major class.

As for lexicon, i was browsing on Nautical terms and found a 'Nautic and Military Diet', an unprecedented manuscript of the 18th. century, regulating life aboard.
This document, comprising nautic rules, terms and phrases, has no less than 590 pages.

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Rick · 27th May 2021, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

What is the origin of the word orlop?
Origin of orlop. 1375–1425; late Middle English overloppe < Middle Dutch over-loop covering, literally, an over-leap, equivalent to over- over- + -loopen to run, extend; see leap. Also called orlop deck.

This one's a bit unclear:
mizzen (n.)
"aftermost fore-and-aft sail of a three-masted ship," early 15c., mesan, via French misaine "foresail, foremast," altered (by influence of Italian mezzana "mizzen") from Old French migenne, from Catalan mitjana, from Latin medianus "of the middle" (from PIE root *medhyo- "middle").

The sense of the English and Italian words agree, but the etymology is off because the "middle" mast on a ship is the mainmast. Perhaps it refers to a sail of "middle" size, or the thing described changed. Klein suggests an alternate etymology of the French word, from Arabic via Italian. The mizzen-mast (late 15c.) supports the mizzen-sail.

fernando · 28th May 2021, 11:53 AM

The orlop is the lowest deck on a ship (except for very old ships). It is the deck or part of a deck where cables are housed, usually below the waterline. It has been suggested that the name originates from "overlooping" of the cables, or alternatively, that the name is a corruption of "overlap", referring to an overlapping half deck, similar to a balcony, occupying a part of the space of the lower deck from the ship. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word descends from the Dutch overloop of the verb overlopen, "to run (over); extend".
Down under, the Orlop deck of the Vasa, a 1728 Swedish ship of the line, in red.

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28th May 2021, 11:53 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Am i repeating Rick ? The orlop is the lowest deck on a ship (except for very old ships). It is the deck or part of a deck where cables are housed, usually below the waterline. It has been suggested that the name originates from "overlooping" of the cables, or alternatively, that the name is a corruption of "overlap", referring to an overlapping half deck, similar to a balcony, occupying a part of the space of the lower deck from the ship. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word descends from the Dutch overloop of the verb overlopen, "to run (over); extend". Down under, the Orlop deck of the Vasa, a 1728 Swedish ship of the line, in red. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 28th May 2021 at 12:04 PM.

22nd May 2021, 05:09 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,336	The nautical terminology is most definitely colorful and fascinating with these similes! adding the language element to the glossary truly does add further dimension. I recall in numerous cases Fernando has described sword hilt elements, in one case where the hilt had resemblances to the horse bit and was described accordingly. I suppose overall these kinds of descriptive terms are found in many types of descriptions, which makes etymology pretty intriguing. There are some which I would leave alone, 'poop deck' ?

23rd May 2021, 09:54 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,121	"Poop Deck" indeed! I find these conversations among the most entertaining and valuable elements of this site... and now you know why the Nihonto guys use Japanese vocabulary to describe a sword.

24th May 2021, 02:03 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,171	Ahh yes, the poop deck! Then you have the oddities of the fo'castle, the 'head' which is located at the bough/head of the ship but features the...ahem...bottom more! Captstans and in later naval jargon, brass monkeys. All very interesting. Don't even get me started on things like 'salmagundie' (a naval dish consisting of tinned/salted beef, dried pies, old bisquit complete with weevils all dumped in a sack and often beer or grog poured over it all. Yummy!)

25th May 2021, 11:52 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,340	Well mates, it was called the poop deck from the French for Stern; Poope IIRC.

27th May 2021, 06:10 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,171	Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?