Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th May 2006, 05:31 PM   #1
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

the georgian wields a straight-bladed sword. What does his opponenr carry?
The moral: don't grab the blade!
ariel is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 05:43 PM   #2
M.carter
Member
 
M.carter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
Default

If you honestly believe that that sword is earlier than 17th century, you really should read a history book
M.carter is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 07:28 PM   #3
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Aaa-h, somebody agrees with me!
My feelings exactly!


First, the style of the inlay: this is a typical Turkish Ottoman technique with gold wire hammered into incised design and protruding above the surface. The earliest examples are from the 17th century.The intactness of the inlay is astounding: no way it could have been made in the 14th century: only museum exponates survive that well, but the older swords were put to use.


Second, the ornament of flags and halberds is very European , at the earliest 17th, more likely 18-19th century.

The figure of sitting Mary with baby Jesus in her lap is very Western: first, it has uncovered hair that was unacceptable to the Eastern Orthodox Church and, second, the Cherub above her head is also Western: head with two wings. The "all-seeing eye in a triangle" in the uppermost cartouche looks suspiciouly as a Masonic symbol that came into popular use in the second half of the 18th century.

The blade also looks Turkish, typical early Kilic 17-18th century.

The handle looks Persian (iron crossguard and 90 deg. pommel) but it could have been remounted. Remounted and broken handle and perfectly intact blade???


My overall assessment: this is a very nice and valuable sword made in Turkey, likely Istanbul in the 18th century at the earliest under significant Western influence. It resembles mightily the series of similar swords shown in the Astvatsaturyan's book "Turkish Weapons" and bearing Greek, Latin, Slavic or Arabic inscriptions. Probably, there was a fashion of the times.

As to the attribution of this sword to Leon V.... Not every "Indiana Jones" knife was actually owned by Harrison Ford
ariel is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 09:02 PM   #4
M.carter
Member
 
M.carter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Aaa-h, somebody agrees with me!
My feelings exactly!


First, the style of the inlay: this is a typical Turkish Ottoman technique with gold wire hammered into incised design and protruding above the surface. The earliest examples are from the 17th century.The intactness of the inlay is astounding: no way it could have been made in the 14th century: only museum exponates survive that well, but the older swords were put to use.


Second, the ornament of flags and halberds is very European , at the earliest 17th, more likely 18-19th century.

The figure of sitting Mary with baby Jesus in her lap is very Western: first, it has uncovered hair that was unacceptable to the Eastern Orthodox Church and, second, the Cherub above her head is also Western: head with two wings. The "all-seeing eye in a triangle" in the uppermost cartouche looks suspiciouly as a Masonic symbol that came into popular use in the second half of the 18th century.

The blade also looks Turkish, typical early Kilic 17-18th century.

The handle looks Persian (iron crossguard and 90 deg. pommel) but it could have been remounted. Remounted and broken handle and perfectly intact blade???


My overall assessment: this is a very nice and valuable sword made in Turkey, likely Istanbul in the 18th century at the earliest under significant Western influence. It resembles mightily the series of similar swords shown in the Astvatsaturyan's book "Turkish Weapons" and bearing Greek, Latin, Slavic or Arabic inscriptions. Probably, there was a fashion of the times.

As to the attribution of this sword to Leon V.... Not every "Indiana Jones" knife was actually owned by Harrison Ford
My opinion exactly on swordforum, though manouchehr says he believes that its something different. He says that in his upcoming book, he found out that these hilts and blade styles go much older than 15th century.
M.carter is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 09:18 PM   #5
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.carter
My opinion exactly on swordforum, though manouchehr says he believes that its something different. He says that in his upcoming book, he found out that these hilts and blade styles go much older than 15th century.
My aplologies to Manoucher - while he is a great specialist, certainly of incomparably higher caliber than I am, but I find certain things he says objectionable. For example, in his recent article he claimed that "indian swords" referred in mediaval iranian sources are in fact iranian swords made from wootz. While it is possible, he did not offer any proof of such attribution, therefore I find it too optimistic.
Rivkin is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 09:35 PM   #6
B.I
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 485
Default

i agree with all (except the 14thC date of course).
i think the blade could go as early as the 17thC, and the hilt can so as late as 19thC, so ariels 18thC is a safe bet. i do feel a strong possibility that the blade is earlier than the hilt, so a possibility the inscription was put on during this refit.
there are many claims on SFI, many of which are unfounded unfortunately. i look forward to any new book on oriental arms as my library is as important as my collection, but i fear the 'expertise' there is on history and language, and definately not on arms. it seems the presence of inscriptions and placement in a museum seems to be 'proof' in some opinions.
not here i'm pleased to see
B.I is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 10:22 PM   #7
tsubame1
Member
 
tsubame1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy
Posts: 123
Default What's happening ?

The pictures taken in Venice are mine. As a quiet good NihonTo expert I would suggest that using such poorly made pictures for a Kantei (sword judgment in japanese terms) is a very bad idea no matter how great is the knowledge. On SFI it has been clearly stated in the topics that he date is mismatching by 25 years, and this is notorious to the monks too.
Calendars changed during the time and documents about the swords are not available for consultation, YET.
Me an Manouchehr aren't searching for an Indiana Jones cheap notoriety but only to find what is really in the Sancta Sanctorum of San Lazzaro degli Armeni. I've personally got in touch with the father superior rev. Elia (surname omitted for privacy, makes your own research...) in order to handle and measure the blade directly, as well as to have a translation of the inlaids that are mainly Psalms. CHRISTIAN Psalms. If we're allowed to make it, stay sure we'll post results and EVIDENCIES here too, no matter about the results.
The blade is armenian. PERIOD. If it has been made in XVII c. by an iranian bladesmith with iranian or indian wootz, and in the classical iranian shape, it is treasured by the Mechitarist as the sword of the last Armenian King in the site that holds most of the whole cultural heritage of Armenian people. Till to evidencies of the contrary will be given by someone here with a too big mouth and possibly with some problem with Manouchehr, it still retain the title of the sword of the last armenian king, for respect to the Mechitarist word.
We all know the myth and swords walks together but to find out truth
needs ability, time, knowledge and ACTION. Manouchehr is trying to go to Venice in order to find out the truth. As a NihonTo collector and amateur I'm very little interested in the matter but I feel hurted the way it is managed here just to have a support that is not found on SFI, might be with a good reason.
More respect is due to the blade, the Mechitarists and Manouchehr.
BTW the sword is freely available (with a thick glass in between...) to everybody by decades. Get a ticket to Venice and prove Manouchehr is wrong before he proves he's right...
As for me, I'm going to oil my newly arrived Naginata.
Cheers to all.
tsubame1 is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 10:00 PM   #8
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivkin
My aplologies to Manoucher - while he is a great specialist, certainly of incomparably higher caliber than I am, but I find certain things he says objectionable. For example, in his recent article he claimed that "indian swords" referred in mediaval iranian sources are in fact iranian swords made from wootz. While it is possible, he did not offer any proof of such attribution, therefore I find it too optimistic.
Well, if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail
ariel is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 10:11 PM   #9
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

A short quote from the original description of the monastery where this sword is exhibited:
"There is the one that is belived to be the sword of the very last
King of Armenia. The golden inlay on it says it belonged to Leone
V, dated 1366, but the monks said it is slightly historically
inaccurate"
Well, slightly....Rivkin is absolutely correct: the dates do not agree. How could one overlook this glaring discrepancy ans still accept the " 14th century Persian" origin of ths sword, is beyond belief!
First thing I did when I read the story, was to google Leon V: it all went downhill from there on....
ariel is offline  
Old 30th May 2006, 09:10 PM   #10
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

My reputation among dashnaktzatyun is that of a turk and fashist, so I preferred to abstain from commenting on this sword. I am also _not_ a specialist on this kind of swords or cilician history.

I disagree with some of the criticism. I think that here it is hard to say whether virgin mary's head is covered by mopharion, as it is supposed to be. I also would somewhat disagree concerning western-eastern difference in head cover. For example, afaik, ethiopian tradition is uncovered hair, but all byzantine influenced countries (russia, syria, armenia, partially italy) have covered hair, and only north-western europe - france, germany, scandinavia, netherlands portray uncovered hair.
Despite the fact that cilician armenian art was extremely influenced by crusaders (but yet they always depicted Mary with her head covered), I have never seen cherub in such a position on any cilician icons or manuscripts. However, as noted by Ariel, such depiction is typical for ottoman-produced swords, starting with the end of XVIth century. The style of goldwork is also somewhat ottoman. The banners are in fact very typical for XVIII century as well. I agree with all of this, but there are even more problems:

Levon the Vth ruled in 1374 - 1375. Not 1366, not 1336. I doubt that his armorer was so ignorant and arrogant as just to put a date on the sword from the top of his head. I also have a small problem with a cross that is held by the king. I am no expert on armenian symbolics, but such crosses imho are much more characteristic for Levon the Ist and lorraine cross; later kings would be expected to use - templar of jerusalem's crosses.

And finally - I mentioned the union with mongols, because it could have explained the type of the sword. Curved swords were not used by armenians, instead they used swords very similar to the georgian sword depicted above. Attached are excavated (???) armenian cilician swords, Levon the Ist time or so.

P.S. I think the demon just has a torch.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Rivkin; 30th May 2006 at 09:26 PM.
Rivkin is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.