Jian Sword Buddha

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Philip

Well, the foray into Confucious and the Chinese civil service is quite a stretch, isn't it? What the examination system had to do with the jian and its use isn't exactly clear, but let me think about it. ...

Thanks Philip. Much appreciated if you can bring Confucius, the Chinese civil service, and the examination system into focus with regard to the jian and its use. Wayne's comments are a bit "fuzzy" to me.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you Philip for the very interesting information!

Reading your explanation I remembered another very interesting aspect:

the museums in China have very small collections of Chinese porcelain.

And this is because of two main reasons:
1. throughout the whole history of China, porcelain was a main export product and was exported in massive quantities;
2. during Mao's "Cultural Revolution" porcelain has been considered as a symbol of aristocracy and decadence and was systematically destroyed.

So I was thinking that maybe the "Cultural Revolution" thing may have impacted the jian swords as they also were a symbol of aristocracy.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Thank you Philip for the very interesting information!

Reading your explanation I remembered another very interesting aspect:

the museums in China have very small collections of Chinese porcelain.

And this is because of two main reasons:
1. throughout the whole history of China, porcelain was a main export product and was exported in massive quantities;
2. during Mao's "Cultural Revolution" porcelain has been considered as a symbol of aristocracy and decadence and was systematically destroyed.

So I was thinking that maybe the "Cultural Revolution" thing may have impacted the jian swords as they also were a symbol of aristocracy.

You're most welcome, Marius!

It might be useful to remember also that the anti-aristocratic attitude predates Mao, we see it after the 1911 revolution that toppled the monarchy. Just like in France in 1792 and Russia post-1917. A lot of articles associated with the Manchu rulers were destroyed -- mandarins' uniforms and hats, insignia and flags, official seals, and (sadly) documents that historians would love to have available today.

Mao's Red Guards targeted ALL antiques. That's why the shortages of objects in museums. Antiques dealers and collectors were harassed, arrested, and on occasion sent to camps to be "re-educated". Because antiques collecting was considered a BOURGEOISE habit, and you know how Communists hate that class!

Funny story -- when I spent a month in the USSR in the 1980s, I took some cigars with me to enjoy, not knowing if I could get them there. What a pleasure, puffing on one in the park, or at a café. Some folks stopped to look -- I thought it's because I'm a funny looking guy with a bald head, but no, it was the cigar. Soviet citizens just didn't do cigars. Someone told me that the prejudice was a holdover from old propaganda associating cigar smoking with fat cat capitalists in their expensive suits sitting on bags of ill-gotten money squeezed from the proletariat!

[mariusgmioc]

Cigars you said?!

Was like wearing an infamy badge saying "I'm a bloody capitalist suckling on the blood of the working class"...

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Philip

...
Some folks stopped to look -- ..., it was the cigar. ...

Probably just because cigars smell really bad.

[josh stout]

Philip- Your brief history of the Chinese sword is a useful little reference guide. Too bad it is hidden deep in a post based on such a poor, recent example.

I also liked your comments on what people sometimes called "dragon well" swords with the etched dragon and phoenix, and seven etched stars. You mention seeing them brand new in China in the late 70s. My teacher and his wife picked up a couple in China at about that time, and they are recognizably the same. I bought several for not much in the mid 80s and early 90s to practice with, and ended up giving them to friends so I could make room for antiques. Now I see 80s era ones on eBay for many hundreds of dollars, while new ones are still available in Chinatown.

On the original jian in this post, I used to try and be charitable, and say they might be "vintage", but I think that is only if "vintage" is between 10-25 years old.

As for secret societies, I would say they are central aspects of Chinese culture. Most Indonesian Chinese temples have their own set of Kilin dancers, despite them having been being illegal under Suharto. The Kilin societies are also martial arts schools and neighborhood protection groups. I understand it is similar in Taiwan.

My martial arts group got free sake for years in NYC when it turned out the restaurant was run by Chinese Indonesians. We were the boys from the temple.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by josh stout

My martial arts group got free sake for years in NYC when it turned out the restaurant was run by Chinese Indonesians. We were the boys from the temple.

Conservative or Reform?

[JoeCanada42]

Josh-stout, your opinion drew me back to this thread,, as said before sometimes new swords are made to a better quality than the old ones, I found an example of my sword being called a Tai chi masters sword, to my understanding they use battle ready swords for cutting tests.
I still haven't seen any other similar examples except the one in that video and another one with similar fittings not the pommel called 19c which remains for auction. I have seen a recent YouTube video where they talk about all the points of a good Jian besides the balance point, which are all good on my sword to be a user. ill link the video.
I have had a lot of fun with the sword, I can do several spinning hand moves and can consistently hear the hasuji or sword wind cutting sound when practicing cuts. its definitely well enough to be a user in my opinion.
there is signs of age on the blade so
I seriously doubt it is modern or recent, or I think we would see some similar examples on the market, I don't think the functional quality is poor at all, just the finish on the fittings, I heard the Jian sword is meant to break the opponents sword and even cut through amour. anyways its proven to be more unique than any other modern ones I see, and more interesting then the comparable vintage ones that sell for a lot. the fittings may look poor but the sword until thoroughly tested could prove to be good quality, recent, vintage or antique.
I am gaining more appreciation for the qualities of this sword, I would rather it wasn't put down , id bet it would cut in half most other jians I see for sale.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Philip. Much appreciated if you can bring Confucius, the Chinese civil service, and the examination system into focus with regard to the jian and its use. Wayne's comments are a bit "fuzzy" to me.

Ian, after thinking about it more, I also can't help but find his comments to be, as you say, "fuzzy". There seems to be no clear nexus between the jian and Confucian ideology (essentially a framework governing social structure and political morality) or the governmental structure itself.

Since Wayne does comment on the role of the jian (straight double edged) and the dao (single edged, either straight backsword or curved saber), how about an historical overview to put all this in some sort of developmental context.

1. The first hilt weapon (with longish blade) to hit the scene in China was the sword (jian), made of bronze, first appearing during classical antiquity, during the feudalistic Zhou period prior to unification. It predated the use of long single-edged blades and for awhile it was the only game in town as far as swords went.

2. The backsword, zhibeidao (literally "straight backed knife") came into use towards the end of the Zhou, first in bronze then later in iron and eventually steel. It was used alongside the jian and became increasingly popular during the consolidation and unification of the feudal states into a centralized empire (Qin Dynasty, 3rd cent. BC).

3. During the succeeding Eastern and Western Han Dynasties, which more or less coincided with the late Roman Republic and early Empire, both weapons remained in use, although the backsword gradually became more important in a military role.


4. During the medieval dynasties, both blade types underwent a design change, in terms of hilts and scabbard suspension, influenced by the swords of pre-Islamic Iran, whose culture helped shape that of China in terms of the sciences, cuisine, music and arts (Buddhism also reached China via western Asia from India, also accounting for these cultural linkages). This "new" style Chinese sword mounting was also adopted by the Koreans and Japanese, which explains the considerable outward similarities between 7th-9th cent. swords from Iran, China, and Japan seen at such institutions as the Met and the Shô-sô-in (Nara, Japan).

5. Later in the medieval period, during the Song Dynasties (10th-13th cent.) the jian hilt changed again, to a form not much dissimilar to the familiar shape known today. The backsword continued in its military role but its worth noting that in the 11th cent. military compendium WUJING ZONGYAO the double edged sword is listed as one of the close-combat hilt weapons as well.

6. The saber (peidao) with its CURVED single edged blade, makes its debut on a large scale during the short-lived Mongol Dynasty (13th-14th cent.). From the researches by Kyrill Rivkin et al, we are all no doubt familiar with origins of the saber among Eurasian steppe nomad cultures, and its spread to surrounding "sedentary" agricultural- and commercially-based states by way of the migration and conquests of Inner Asian peoples from the Avars to the Timurids.

7. By the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) the saber gained in importance in the military, and the backsword declined and practically disappeared (surviving only in the Himalayan kingdoms of Tibet and Bhutan, and to a limited extent in Korea). The jian increasingly became a civilian weapon, somewhat analogous to the rapier in Europe at about the same time.

8. This pattern of use continued into the last imperial dynasty, the Qing (Manchu) , 1644-1911. Manchu guards officers were known to practice with the jian for sport, and commoners in the more unsettled provinces and districts of the empire carried short-bladed jian for self-defense or more nefarious purposes according to local gazetteers and official documents of the era. The Kangxi emperor (r 1682-1722) had to deal with complaints from provincial officials about armed civilians causing mischief with various weapons, but his memoirs indicate that trying to disarm them was probably more trouble than it was worth since as foreign interlopers, the Manchus were wary of discontented subjects being goaded into rebellion.

A survey of the considerable numbers of jian in museum collections, and of the historical literature, can tell us something about the usage of these weapons, as correlated to their design.
A. There are a number of blade configurations from various periods that point to distinct functional parameters -- Long, narrow, thick, and notably tapered blades, almost reminiscent of rapiers though without the extreme length, popular during the Yuan and Ming Dynasties. Somewhat broader cut-and-thrust blades with fairly aggressive distal taper. Slightly narrower ones with more obtuse edge geometry. We do know that there were a number of fencing styles taught during the late imperial period, and there is probably a correlation.

B. Distinct forms of blades and hilts were reserved for ritual or votive swords connected with popular Taoist practice. The blades are typically inlaid with emblems and inscriptions not found in weapons in Group A. The religious significance of the double-edged sword is also strong in Buddhism, and nowhere is this more apparent than in neighboring Japan, where the ken has been reserved for use as temple regalia, often lavishly mounted in very Indic or Tantric-inspired motifs

C. Touristic curios, widely produced during the end of the Qing through the pre-WW II years, which are non-functional (blades often not tempered), gaudily decorated in stereotypical designs.

D. Equally non-functional but plainer versions made for exercise, beginning in the early years of the Republic, to go along with a revival of traditional martial skills like boxing and archery. This degenerated into the showy "wushu" techniques promoted by the Communist regime after 1949.