Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st April 2021, 04:50 PM   #1
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Cristovão Colombo arriving in the New World, an engraving from the XVI century.


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st April 2021, 04:58 PM   #2
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Francisco Coronado in his expedition from what is now Mexico to present-day Kansas, in 1540-1542.


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st April 2021, 06:37 PM   #3
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 375
Default

Thanks for posting the images. Is the second one old or modern?
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st April 2021, 07:46 PM   #4
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

That one i woldn't know; certainly not from thr period.
(Courtesy The New York Pubic Library)
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 01:34 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,196
Default

The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

It seems that the North Italian arms producing centers had significant influence and contact with not only Spain, but German armourers to the North, notably Munich as one. While the morion did evolve in Spain earlier with the combed peak added to the plainer 'cabasset', the style did catch on in Italy (the Swiss guards at the Vatican) it does seem that the 'Munich' examples would follow suit.

As Fernando has noted, these morions with the fluer de lys which are typically designated 'Munich town guard' are but one of numerous motif and decorations on these helmets .
* the fluer de lys is said to represent the Virgin Mary, who whom the Munich Town Guard were dedicated.

I believe that numbers of these were perhaps among the holdings in the Bavarian National Museum which were de-accessed early in the century and Dr. Hans Stocklein was somehow involved in cataloging. From there it seems there were examples of the helmets in the John Severence collection that went to the Cleveland museum of art.
These may be possible sources for the Munich Town Guard attribution.
It seems there is a type of sword with rapier style hilt also specified to Munich town guard, so this appellation may have been similarly applied, as other swords of the type are known without the connection.

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd April 2021 at 12:24 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 10:03 AM   #6
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
the fluer de lys is said to represent the Virgin Mary, who whom the Munich Town Guard were dedicated.

I believe that numbers of these were perhaps among the holdings in the Bavarian National Museum which were de-accessed early in the century and Dr. Hans Stocklein was somehow involved in cataloging. From there it seems there were examples of the helmets in the John Severence collection that went to the Cleveland museum of art.
These may be possible sources for the Munich Town Guard attribution.
It seems there is a type of sword with rapier style hilt also specified to Munich town guard, so this appellation may have been similarly applied, as other swords of the type are known without the connection.
Great remarks, Jim! Thanks for this! This may explain the appearance of the fleur de lis on those helmets - seeking for the protection of the Virgin Mary. I think I´ve also seen praises of Virgin Mary on sword blades.

Last edited by AHorsa; 2nd April 2021 at 11:56 AM.
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 12:26 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
Great remarks, Jim! Thanks for this! This may explain the appearance of the fleur de lis on those helmets - seeking for the protection of the Virgin Mary. I think I´ve also seen praises of Virgin Mary on sword blades.
You bet! glad I could help.
It has often been held that the fluer de lys was a French device, however, with its religious and other connotations it has been known in numerous other contexts.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 10:37 AM   #8
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 413
Default

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

Hi Jim, you have just inspired me to see " conquest of paradise " again !
kind regards
Ulfberth
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 12:30 PM   #9
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,196
Default

[QUOTE=ulfberth]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

Hi Jim, you have just inspired me to see " conquest of paradise " again !
kind regards
Ulfberth

It is the 'romantic' historian in us!!! The arms and armor we study are the forces that take us back into these amazing times! Bon voyage!!!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 02:47 PM   #10
fernando
(deceased)
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Red face Going semantics ?...

Conquistador (conqueror) would be the term used to refer to Spanish and Portuguese soldiers, explorers and adventurers who ventured through the Americas and the Pacific Ocean, on the shores of Asia, in regions controlled by the Portuguese and Spanish between the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. We know of a Portuguese adventurer, Salvador Ribeiro de Sousa, who managed to be the King of Pegu (Suthern Birmania = Myanmar) in the XVI century. On the other hand, it is rather acceptable that contemporay civilan adventurers (often mercenaries) would wear whatever armout they got hold of.
As for the date Karcheski says that morrions showed up by later in the century, within my illiteracy, i dare say he commits an imprecision. The morrion was born in Castille by early XVI century. Hernando de Soto and Coronado (1540's) are admitted to have supplied them to their infants; as we can also see in a Pizarros's depiction, kept in la Universidad de Chile. Also it would be hard to believe that, a painting by Juan Lepiani, kept in Museo Nacional de Arqueología, Antropología e Historia del Perú, would have Pizarro and the boys wearing the wrong head protection.
Also in a work by Lyliane and Fred Funcken we may see comb (crest) morrions dated 1530 whereas the half comb style would date beg. XVII century.
It is no wonder that these helmets, bearing an appealing look, soon spread all over Europe, becoming a fashionable item for Munich guards, Landsknechts and even the Vatican ... this one even up to nowadays. I wouldn't be surprised that this helmet comb (crest) was thought by many to be an embelishment detail and not conceived to reinforce it.

A random note:
Afonso de Albuquerque (1453-1515) one of he greatest Portuguese (as called) conquistadores, a noble of pure Portuguese lineage, had as his family coat of arms, a shield with four fleures de lys.



.
Attached Images
      
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2021, 10:13 PM   #11
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,196
Default

As always, Fernando I look forward to your well placed and referenced responses to my ramblings. The heading semantics is of course right in line here, as terms and perceptions are key in what we know of the conquistadors and their appearance and equipment.

Interestingly, the term 'conquistador' was not used to describe these forces of exploration and conquest until the 19th century. Still it describes them resoundingly as we constantly learn more of them and their 'adventures'.

Regarding semantics, I think the terms cabasset (cabacete) and morion are at times interchanged, and these helmets are of often remarkably subtle comparison. ...the 'comb' being the primary feature of attention.

It would be difficult to determine exactly what year the peak of the cabasset was reduced slightly, and the height achieved with the 'comb' along the center of the helmet. I would not dispute Castilian origin, and the burgonet versions of the armet closed helmets also had combs on many versions.

The question is just when did the combed morion with boat shell brim become well known, used, by the conquistadors. ...the term morion is typically used for this form. However, there are cabacete also noted as 'morion', so here is the semantics issue.

In "The Conquistadors" (Terence Wise, Osprey, 1980, p.36, B2) a Spanish arquebusier c. 1520-40 is shown wearing a comb morion with boat shell, with comment this was the TYPICAL Spanish helmet.
However, it is noted , the COMB became more PROMINENT after 1530.

In the same plate, a swordsman of this period is wearing a burgonet, a type of more enclosed helmet but without visor etc. with notes these and light cavalrymen wore these and NOT the morion as often supposed.
The pikemen in the plate wear a 'pear stalk' cabasset with the boat shell c. 1540.

In this reference it is noted (p.35) that with an illustration of a Spanish knight c. 1500-40, he is wearing blackened armor to protect from weather, "...MOST of the captains and gentlemen amongst the conquistadors wore such armor, although some later abandoned all except the helmet in favor of the lighter Indian armor".
Here I would note, the helmet they wore was closed, with armet, vizor and bevor.



In other references, and "European Arms & Armor" (C.H.Ashdown, 1995), p.265, in the transition period (1500-52) one of the salient features of armor was the general use of a close helmet. As noted, ranking figures in the early 16th c. favored the closed helmet, and scholars I have spoken with have noted the favor of variations of these helmets with bevor etc. in the early period of colonization.

While I would dread contesting the veracity of a painting depicting these larger than life figures of history wearing incorrect armor or costume, it seems such license is well known in historically themed art. Here in the US, the topic of Custer and his 'last stand' is terribly misrepresented in many art pieces. Many, possibly even most, events such as cavalry charges etc. are little like the actual event, and often painted many years after the fact.

Looking through "Spanish Arms & Armor" (Calvert, 1908) there are many variations of burgonet, 'morion' and cabacete from late 15th into 16th c. which illustrate the scope of styles in use in these times. I believe what Mr. Karcheski was referring to was that the 'combed morion' did not come into popular use until after c. 1530s, and then in the rather inconsistent use prevalent in these assembled forces in Spain's New World.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2021, 05:56 AM   #12
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando

A random note:
Afonso de Albuquerque (1453-1515) one of he greatest Portuguese (as called) conquistadores, a noble of pure Portuguese lineage, had as his family coat of arms, a shield with four fleures de lys.

.
And doesn't the cross of the Order of Aviz have a fleur-de-lys at the end of each arm?
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.