looking for these 500 years old swords

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Very nice example, Bruno.
Also in the famous Pastrana tapestries, commissioned by King Dom Afonso V, to celebrate conquests in African territory (Arzila, Tangiers) we can see, among plenty weaponry advanced for the time, a few examples of these swords, in a shape similar to those in the panels. Actually it presumed that the cards for the weaving of these tapestries (in Tournai, today Belgium) were executed by the same Nuno Gonçalves.


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Exactly i have seen that! this amplifies the question where did this swords ended up ? it they were used by any knight at that time, we should know many more examples that the ones that are known.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

... Exactly i have seen that! this amplifies the question where did this swords ended up ?

You tell me Bruno, once my previous guessings (#25) were not plausible.
We should regard the examples represented in the tapistries with some uniformity of style, perhaps the result of their repetition in so many instances of the battle scene, or their relative smallness among so many other details. Whereas tith the panels, it is possible to observe detailed stylistic divergences between the different models; showing us the armaments of illustrious courtiers, the best that money can buy;

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

Exactly i have seen that! this amplifies the question where did this swords ended up ? it they were used by any knight at that time, we should know many more examples that the ones that are known.

Looks like the Spaniards give a better account of their sister pattern high end examples. But you now, a larger country, larger museums, greater rust degradations, larger burial sites ... and certainly a lot more private collections.



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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like the Spaniards give a better account of their sister pattern high end examples. But you now, a larger country, larger museums, greater rust degradations, larger burial sites ... and certainly a lot more private collections.



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The spanish origin of these swords is something i don't take for guaranteed, in the Philips age some of the best items at the portuguese crown armoury houses were indeed stolen.

[kronckew]

Don't forget Spain ruled the Low countries from 1556 thru 1714, and in the latter years with rebellions there, aided by the English, there would have been a lot of Spanish/Portugese swords there, many of which were no longer needed by their previous owners after their demise. Spain also ruled Portugal 1580-1640, and I gather were not above taking souvenirs.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

The spanish origin of these swords is something i don't take for guaranteed, in the Philips age some of the best items at the portuguese crown armoury houses were indeed stolen.

I don't think at all that this would have been the case, given their identity.
From top to bottom: the sword of King Fernando, the Catholic, in the Cathedral of Granada; another of Fernando’ swords, in the Real Armería of Madrid; the so called Gran Capitan sword, because of “Gran Capitan” Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, also in the Real Armería; and the sword of the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan of Madrid.
But if your doubts remain ... i am off.

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

I don't think at all that this would have been the case, given their identity.
From top to bottom: the sword of King Fernando, the Catholic, in the Cathedral of Granada; another of Fernando’ swords, in the Real Armería of Madrid; the so called Gran Capitan sword, because of “Gran Capitan” Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, also in the Real Armería; and the sword of the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan of Madrid.
But if your doubts remain ... i am off.

And tell me Fernando do they know where they were made ? they are signed ?

[fernando]

Bruno, you have a PM.


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[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Bruno, you gave a PM.

I invite you to see this video about Infante Henrique from the professor Manuel Gandra, i think after you see the video you will understand my doubts about all what is writed iin history books about this period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8mElQ7H9m4

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by bvieira

And tell me Fernando do they know where they were made ? they are signed ?

Both swords in Madrid are signed: the one attributed to Fernando el Católico carries the name "Antonius", and the one in the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan is signed "Chataldo" (a.k.a. Cataldo). This name also appears on the sword of Francis I in the Musée de l'Armée, in Paris.

Jehan L'Hermite, who attended the Spanish court between 1587-1602, writes in his Passetemps of three master sword-smiths known as the "Buena Junta" who worked in Cuéllar, in Castile, "one hundred years ago" (so contemporary with Fernando and Francis). He records their names as Antonius, Kataldo, and Piero.

The old smiths of Cuéllar are mentioned in the famous novel Lazarillo de Tormes, published in 1554. Another passage mentions a priceless sword made by Antonio - admittedly a common name.

In a manuscript formerly owned by Íñigo López de Mendoza, 4th Duke of the Infantado (d. 1566), appears an illustration of the markings on "buenas espadas antiguas" which includes those of the "principal masters", Piero, Antonius, and Cataldo, and of their disciples. The illustrated markings attributed to Antonius and Cataldo correspond to those on the surviving swords. The mark of Piero matches that on the papal sword given to Juan II in 1446, which is signed "Pierus me fece". This sword certainly came to Spain from Italy, and predates the supposed Buena Junta... I wonder if the duke's illustration was based on the swords we know today, then in the royal collection, and confuses the work of different Pieros.

[fernando]

A truly excelent enlightening of this issue, Mark. Thanks much for sharing.
I have tried to keep a close picture of Dom Fernando's sword in Granada but the security guy demanded that i deleted it from my camera .