Very large (East?) Javanese Keris for Comments

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2021, 07:10 AM

This is an interesting keris.

There are several things that strike the eye immediately upon seeing this keris:-

Wilah

the front of the gandhik is slightly concave

the gonjo is inclined to be thin and with only a very slight curve

the tikel alis is the old style that proceeds to the front of the gandhik

the material appears to be coarse and the pamor looks as if it has been "smeared" over the surface; this material would require close examination under magnification before any conclusions could be drawn.

it looks as if there is a rudimentary ada-ada

The slightly concave gandhik front is associated with West Jawa more than any other location, it is fairly common in West Jawa keris and seldom found in Central Jawa & East Jawa

Gonjo

The thin, flat gonjo is a Pajajaran tell, the sirah cecak has been damaged, but if it can be imagined as undamaged a Pajajaran classification could be supported, and the same is true of the buntut urang.

Wrongko

The down turned lip at the front of the atasan is associated with areas west of Tegal, there is a similar style associated with Blambangan, but here it is not as pronounced as in the example under discussion, and the same is true of a similar Balinese style.

Questions

Is the cross section of the body of the blade smoothly curved on its faces, or is there evidence of a slight ridge at its center?

The blade is within length parameters for a Javanese blade, and it is relatively broad, but is this blade also thick? Does it feel heavy or is it light in the hand? Is it lively and easily moved or is it a weight that requires a conscious hand movement? To judge this the keris needs to be held with thumb & index finger pinching the blumbangan and the gonjo resting on the index finger, with the hilt itself only loosely held, the blade more or less supported on the index finger as a fulcrum point.

Is the blade a reasonably good fit to the wrongko , maybe a bit sloppy, but that sloppiness able to be attributed to wear rather than to a poor refit?

Athanase · 18th February 2021, 10:46 AM

I do not see any trace of a central ridge on the blade.

In the middle of the blade the thickness is about 5mm

By manipulating the blade, we feel its weight weighing a little on the wrist.

The wrangka fit is very good. On the other hand the gandar is very damaged, the interior is totally eaten away by worms and very fragile because it is hollow. The black spots that we see on the scabbard are from old repairs where the holes were filled with putty.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2021, 11:12 AM

Thanks Athanase.

So the faces of the blade are smooth curves?

Athanase · 18th February 2021, 11:42 AM

Yes it's smooth curves.

kai · 18th February 2021, 11:43 AM

Hello Alan,

Do you know why the gonjo has these triangular notches?

Don't you think the gonjo might have been replaced? The not well-defined sirah cecak does not seeem to fit well with the neatly sculpted gandik, does it?

Regards,
Kai

David · 18th February 2021, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Alan,

Do you know why the gonjo has these triangular notches?

Don't you think the gonjo might have been replaced? The not well-defined sirah cecak does not seeem to fit well with the neatly sculpted gandik, does it?

Regards,
Kai

Glad you asked about these notches. I was going to enquire and then forgot to mention it. I am curious as well.

Athanase · 18th February 2021, 05:25 PM

For me the notch on the internal face of the Ganja was made during forging to give its domed profile on each side, while starting from a thin piece of metal, in the but to save material.
After that do not say if it is the original Ganja or a replacement.

Originally it was rust welded to the blade, but after a vinegar bath to remove the rust it became free again.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2021, 06:58 PM

Kai, the removal of material from the underside of the gonjo is done to facilitate fitting.

The gonjo might have been replaced, it is not fitted at the moment and I'd need it in my hand before I could give a supportable opinion, but whether it was or was not replaced , it is a west Jawa gonjo, and in my opinion this is a west Jawa wilahan.

Just read Athanase's post.Sounds like an original gonjo.

But Athanase, this removal of material from the bottom of a gonjo is not the result of forging, it is stock removal for the reason I've given, and it is common. We cannot, in any case, forge minor details like this.

GIO · 21st February 2021, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

For me the notch on the internal face of the Ganja was made during forging to give its domed profile on each side, while starting from a thin piece of metal, in the but to save material.
After that do not say if it is the original Ganja or a replacement.

Originally it was rust welded to the blade, but after a vinegar bath to remove the rust it became free again.

I have some doubts about the originality of the ganja: the colour is different than that of the blade and the sirah cecak is not aligned with the blade.

18th February 2021, 07:10 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,070	This is an interesting keris. There are several things that strike the eye immediately upon seeing this keris:- Wilah the front of the gandhik is slightly concave the gonjo is inclined to be thin and with only a very slight curve the tikel alis is the old style that proceeds to the front of the gandhik the material appears to be coarse and the pamor looks as if it has been "smeared" over the surface; this material would require close examination under magnification before any conclusions could be drawn. it looks as if there is a rudimentary ada-ada The slightly concave gandhik front is associated with West Jawa more than any other location, it is fairly common in West Jawa keris and seldom found in Central Jawa & East Jawa Gonjo The thin, flat gonjo is a Pajajaran tell, the sirah cecak has been damaged, but if it can be imagined as undamaged a Pajajaran classification could be supported, and the same is true of the buntut urang. Wrongko The down turned lip at the front of the atasan is associated with areas west of Tegal, there is a similar style associated with Blambangan, but here it is not as pronounced as in the example under discussion, and the same is true of a similar Balinese style. Questions Is the cross section of the body of the blade smoothly curved on its faces, or is there evidence of a slight ridge at its center? The blade is within length parameters for a Javanese blade, and it is relatively broad, but is this blade also thick? Does it feel heavy or is it light in the hand? Is it lively and easily moved or is it a weight that requires a conscious hand movement? To judge this the keris needs to be held with thumb & index finger pinching the blumbangan and the gonjo resting on the index finger, with the hilt itself only loosely held, the blade more or less supported on the index finger as a fulcrum point. Is the blade a reasonably good fit to the wrongko , maybe a bit sloppy, but that sloppiness able to be attributed to wear rather than to a poor refit? Attached Images

18th February 2021, 10:46 AM	#2
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 422	I do not see any trace of a central ridge on the blade. In the middle of the blade the thickness is about 5mm By manipulating the blade, we feel its weight weighing a little on the wrist. The wrangka fit is very good. On the other hand the gandar is very damaged, the interior is totally eaten away by worms and very fragile because it is hollow. The black spots that we see on the scabbard are from old repairs where the holes were filled with putty.

18th February 2021, 11:12 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,070	Thanks Athanase. So the faces of the blade are smooth curves?

18th February 2021, 11:42 AM	#4
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 422	Yes it's smooth curves.

18th February 2021, 11:43 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, Do you know why the gonjo has these triangular notches? Don't you think the gonjo might have been replaced? The not well-defined sirah cecak does not seeem to fit well with the neatly sculpted gandik, does it? Regards, Kai

18th February 2021, 05:25 PM	#7
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 422	For me the notch on the internal face of the Ganja was made during forging to give its domed profile on each side, while starting from a thin piece of metal, in the but to save material. After that do not say if it is the original Ganja or a replacement. Originally it was rust welded to the blade, but after a vinegar bath to remove the rust it became free again.

18th February 2021, 06:58 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,070	Kai, the removal of material from the underside of the gonjo is done to facilitate fitting. The gonjo might have been replaced, it is not fitted at the moment and I'd need it in my hand before I could give a supportable opinion, but whether it was or was not replaced , it is a west Jawa gonjo, and in my opinion this is a west Jawa wilahan. Just read Athanase's post.Sounds like an original gonjo. But Athanase, this removal of material from the bottom of a gonjo is not the result of forging, it is stock removal for the reason I've given, and it is common. We cannot, in any case, forge minor details like this.