Old Nimcha for Info and to share

JoeCanada42 · 18th February 2021, 01:45 AM

I find the Nimchas extra forward facing quillons remind me more of portuguese crab swords, then arab sabres. my opinion.

kronckew · 18th February 2021, 02:47 AM

All wolves are Canines, all Canines are not dogs. The domestic dog is 98% wolf. lines blur between different members of the same family. Foxes are canines, but not wolves, Maned Wolves are not wolves but are canines.

All nimcha are saif, not all saif are nimcha, some saif are part nimcha. karabala hilts are not nimcha hilts.

All berries are fruits, but not all fruits are berries. A pineapple is a group of berries. a banana is a berry, a strawberry is NOT a berry, blackberries are NOT berries either. Not all fruits are even called fruits. A tomato is a fruit. An avocado is a berry. So is a watermelon.

Who said names have to be logical?

JoeCanada42 · 19th February 2021, 02:28 AM

Kronckew, I agree with you,

JoeCanada42 · 19th February 2021, 02:47 AM

I would like to elaborate a little more on my interpretation of the markings on the blade,

first the cutting symbol,, nowadays we use scissors and we cut on the segmented line, in snipping type cuts, (------)

if you cut with a blade, you wave the blade back and forth, in a sawing motion, if you were to draw the cutting motion on a surface , with movement,(~~~~)

Aswell the the squiggly line is even more evident, as a visual representation of cutting ; -
In this experiment I provided for example, wich you are invited to recreate.

for the cut, i drew from the top down , one time is enough to get results, but if you repeat the cut motion a few times the pattern only becomes move evident.

for the puncture, it is self explanitory aswell.

TVV · 19th February 2021, 03:43 AM

Joe, I agree with you that there is likely a meaning behind the decoration on the blade of your nimcha. What looks like floral decoration to us, often had a symbolic meaning to the original owner and the engraver. That being said, I personally do not have any expertise on Moroccan art and culture to allow me to recognize the significance of the motives. The knowledge of the members of this forum is pretty amazing though, and hopefully someone else would be able to give you an answer.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2021, 12:25 PM

Joe, these observations on the possible meanings in the marking motif on the blade of your nimcha are most interesting. While my earlier comments on these kinds of markings were somewhat pragmatic, the deeper meanings in Berber symbolism are indeed perhaps in degree sometimes incorporated into decorative motif on weaponry.

With regard to the 'flyssa', the sword associated with the Kabyle tribes of Berbers in Algeria, the decorative motif on these is a combination of early Byzantine artistic character along with talismanic symbols which indeed have protective purpose against the 'evil eye'. This is a common feature on the weaponry of tribal peoples' folk religion, often in the form of the 'aghrab', a symbolic device seen on Arabian swords.....and in the case of the triangular device in linear design on the flyssa, known as the 'fibula'.

These kinds of symbols and designs are as noted, often found on the edged weaponry of North Africa, which includes of course, a predominantly Berber population.

It is important to note that the Berber designation refers to an ethnic group of many tribal confederations and nations across coastal North Africa typically collectively regarded as 'Imazighen'. The term 'Berber' referring to Barbary, was not generally used until 19th c.

The Berber people are comprised of many tribal confederations, and while largely Muslim, still maintain their own folk religions, dialectic languages and of course symbolisms.

In the "Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons" (Tarussuk & Blair, 1986) in discussion on the 'flyssa', if I recall (the book is not handy at the moment), the authors suggest that much of the symbolism used in the motif of the swords occurs also on the textiles of the Kabyle people.

This would suggest that the symbolism and devices used on Berber weapons in decorative motif may well be found in the larger scope of Berber material culture including textiles, rugs.

Many elements of motif, as previously noted, come from various influences, such as the markings found on European trade blades, such as the 'Genoan' sickle marks, cross and orb and various cosmological devices, moon, stars, sun......though I am not specifying these to only Berber motif. There were likely Ottoman influences, with the curious designs of the 'toughra' perhaps copied in degree.

With the nimcha examples I showed in my post #13, the arc and star at the forte resembles that emblem used to signify 'the Rif' regions of Morocco.
In example #16, the three crosses on the blade of this nimcha appear to have been notably used by the Jabala confederacy of Berbers in Morocco, also in the Rif. These crosses were associated I believe with Raisuli (1871-1925), the noted Sharif of the tribes in the Rif .

Returning to the blade on the example of the OP, these triple fuller blades are well known on nimcha throughout the Barbary regions (from Morocco to Algeria, Tunis and Tripoli) and are imports, mostly perceived as German.

The attached are:
A Moroccan tribesman wearing a s'boula dagger along with photos of one of these, illustrating motif.

Next is a cut down example of one of these triple fuller blades having the crosses and a moon added. Note that these moons in paired form are common on Tuareg blades and Hausa from N. Nigeria through Saharan regions well into Algeria and Sudan. The crosses are well known on the koummya daggers known primarily in Morocco and Algeria.

The map shows the west, northwest regions of Morocco and the Rif, of the Jebala Berbers and tribal groups among them.

JoeCanada42 · 21st February 2021, 06:22 PM

Thanks, Tvv for the encouragement in thinking the symbols have meaning.
Thank you Jim for Putting together all this great knowledge. I am still interested and researching these triple fuller blades seen as imports.

Jim, it is interesting u mentioned these symbols would appear on the local textiles, because in researching another African symbol I did find it in textiles .
these "Berber" symbols, I find in their Henna body paint, and i have found similarity to Voodoo Veves which I find interesting. particularly the marking on my swords scabbard,- I have so many interpretations I wouldn't know where to start. On my scabbards symbol, the borders are highlighted with border lines which I didn't include in my drawing depiction. after cleaning that piece the border lines around the bordering scroll symbols are more visible. These bordering scrolling symbols ,should also have symbolic name & meaning,(like snake skeleton etc..) like what Tvv said about the floral scrolling depictions.

also I noticed this much earlier & didnt pay it much notice, but it is worth sharing, there is a name and date on the scabbard, the name is not legible anymore, (its English in cursive,) and the date 1891

19th February 2021, 02:47 AM	#4
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	I would like to elaborate a little more on my interpretation of the markings on the blade, first the cutting symbol,, nowadays we use scissors and we cut on the segmented line, in snipping type cuts, (------) if you cut with a blade, you wave the blade back and forth, in a sawing motion, if you were to draw the cutting motion on a surface , with movement,(~~~~) Aswell the the squiggly line is even more evident, as a visual representation of cutting ; - In this experiment I provided for example, wich you are invited to recreate. for the cut, i drew from the top down , one time is enough to get results, but if you repeat the cut motion a few times the pattern only becomes move evident. for the puncture, it is self explanitory aswell. Attached Images

19th February 2021, 12:25 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Joe, these observations on the possible meanings in the marking motif on the blade of your nimcha are most interesting. While my earlier comments on these kinds of markings were somewhat pragmatic, the deeper meanings in Berber symbolism are indeed perhaps in degree sometimes incorporated into decorative motif on weaponry. With regard to the 'flyssa', the sword associated with the Kabyle tribes of Berbers in Algeria, the decorative motif on these is a combination of early Byzantine artistic character along with talismanic symbols which indeed have protective purpose against the 'evil eye'. This is a common feature on the weaponry of tribal peoples' folk religion, often in the form of the 'aghrab', a symbolic device seen on Arabian swords.....and in the case of the triangular device in linear design on the flyssa, known as the 'fibula'. These kinds of symbols and designs are as noted, often found on the edged weaponry of North Africa, which includes of course, a predominantly Berber population. It is important to note that the Berber designation refers to an ethnic group of many tribal confederations and nations across coastal North Africa typically collectively regarded as 'Imazighen'. The term 'Berber' referring to Barbary, was not generally used until 19th c. The Berber people are comprised of many tribal confederations, and while largely Muslim, still maintain their own folk religions, dialectic languages and of course symbolisms. In the "Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons" (Tarussuk & Blair, 1986) in discussion on the 'flyssa', if I recall (the book is not handy at the moment), the authors suggest that much of the symbolism used in the motif of the swords occurs also on the textiles of the Kabyle people. This would suggest that the symbolism and devices used on Berber weapons in decorative motif may well be found in the larger scope of Berber material culture including textiles, rugs. Many elements of motif, as previously noted, come from various influences, such as the markings found on European trade blades, such as the 'Genoan' sickle marks, cross and orb and various cosmological devices, moon, stars, sun......though I am not specifying these to only Berber motif. There were likely Ottoman influences, with the curious designs of the 'toughra' perhaps copied in degree. With the nimcha examples I showed in my post #13, the arc and star at the forte resembles that emblem used to signify 'the Rif' regions of Morocco. In example #16, the three crosses on the blade of this nimcha appear to have been notably used by the Jabala confederacy of Berbers in Morocco, also in the Rif. These crosses were associated I believe with Raisuli (1871-1925), the noted Sharif of the tribes in the Rif . Returning to the blade on the example of the OP, these triple fuller blades are well known on nimcha throughout the Barbary regions (from Morocco to Algeria, Tunis and Tripoli) and are imports, mostly perceived as German. The attached are: A Moroccan tribesman wearing a s'boula dagger along with photos of one of these, illustrating motif. Next is a cut down example of one of these triple fuller blades having the crosses and a moon added. Note that these moons in paired form are common on Tuareg blades and Hausa from N. Nigeria through Saharan regions well into Algeria and Sudan. The crosses are well known on the koummya daggers known primarily in Morocco and Algeria. The map shows the west, northwest regions of Morocco and the Rif, of the Jebala Berbers and tribal groups among them. Attached Images

21st February 2021, 06:22 PM	#7
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Thanks, Tvv for the encouragement in thinking the symbols have meaning. Thank you Jim for Putting together all this great knowledge. I am still interested and researching these triple fuller blades seen as imports. Jim, it is interesting u mentioned these symbols would appear on the local textiles, because in researching another African symbol I did find it in textiles . these "Berber" symbols, I find in their Henna body paint, and i have found similarity to Voodoo Veves which I find interesting. particularly the marking on my swords scabbard,- I have so many interpretations I wouldn't know where to start. On my scabbards symbol, the borders are highlighted with border lines which I didn't include in my drawing depiction. after cleaning that piece the border lines around the bordering scroll symbols are more visible. These bordering scrolling symbols ,should also have symbolic name & meaning,(like snake skeleton etc..) like what Tvv said about the floral scrolling depictions. also I noticed this much earlier & didnt pay it much notice, but it is worth sharing, there is a name and date on the scabbard, the name is not legible anymore, (its English in cursive,) and the date 1891 Attached Images

18th February 2021, 01:45 AM	#1
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	I find the Nimchas extra forward facing quillons remind me more of portuguese crab swords, then arab sabres. my opinion.

18th February 2021, 02:47 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	All wolves are Canines, all Canines are not dogs. The domestic dog is 98% wolf. lines blur between different members of the same family. Foxes are canines, but not wolves, Maned Wolves are not wolves but are canines. All nimcha are saif, not all saif are nimcha, some saif are part nimcha. karabala hilts are not nimcha hilts. All berries are fruits, but not all fruits are berries. A pineapple is a group of berries. a banana is a berry, a strawberry is NOT a berry, blackberries are NOT berries either. Not all fruits are even called fruits. A tomato is a fruit. An avocado is a berry. So is a watermelon. Who said names have to be logical?

19th February 2021, 02:28 AM	#3
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Kronckew, I agree with you,

19th February 2021, 03:43 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Joe, I agree with you that there is likely a meaning behind the decoration on the blade of your nimcha. What looks like floral decoration to us, often had a symbolic meaning to the original owner and the engraver. That being said, I personally do not have any expertise on Moroccan art and culture to allow me to recognize the significance of the motives. The knowledge of the members of this forum is pretty amazing though, and hopefully someone else would be able to give you an answer.