Old Nimcha for Info and to share

[TVV]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

has anyone ever seen one of the nimchas made en mass for the siege of Malta?

how does one date this sword? forgive me i am typing this response and didn't take note of who, but someone said 19C . sounds fair enough but how was this determined I am curious?

Thanks for any input

The nimcha as a form does not seem to have existed prior to the 16th century, and we are talking late 16th century at best. The nimchas with good provenance that exist in museum collections were captured from Barbary pirates in the mid 17th century, and some as late as the 18th century. There is one nimcha of very high quality in the Hofburg armory in Vienna that Eric Claude has dated to the 16th century, though no reasoning for that dating is provided other than the blade is an old European broadsword blade. Another nimcha in the same museum is a better studied form from the 17th/18th centuries, and I suspect both may date from that period. If someone knows of an earlier example, I would love to see it. The reason I am typing all this is to show that there may not have been many, or any nimchas during the siege of Malta in 1565.

When it comes to dating swords, in the absence of a strong provenance or a date on the blade or the fittings, the only option is to do it by comparing the features of the sword to other examples. This is where the forum search function can be extremely helpful.

[Kubur]

I agree 100% with the above

And I will add that no elements on your sword can support an early date, 18th or 17th c. So your sword must be late 19th c or even early 20th c.

Your quillons are a bit flat and crude, not the typical water drops from the 19thc.

So either your sword is Berber tribal 19th c. or it's a basic nimcha from the early 20th c.

I vote for the tribal nimcha with local engravings on the blade.

[JoeCanada42]

thanks TVV & Kubur , I did see many Nimchas on this forum, even the thread with the many Nimchas in the museum. there was a flyssa sold recently by the same person i acquired my Nimcha from, and the flyssa had the same red number markings, so they must have some connection, and I am quite certain my sword is Berber also.

I am just trying to to learn how the age of a nimcha is estimated. i am still unaware of the specific attributes the older vesions would have, besides the rhino horn and being less primitive in look. but because my nimcha looked primitive i thought it could be older,. I will try to take a look at those nimchas you suggested with the provenance.

I read about the seige of Malta somewhere while researching Nimchas and I though , I would like to see what one that old looks like... so ya thanks TVV

[TVV]

The materials used are not necessarily a good indicator of age. There are some great rhino hilt examples from the 19th century. The shape of the grip and the guard are more important. Yours are both typical of Moroccan swords from the 19th century. Fortunately, there are a lot of pictures from the 19th centuries of this type of hilt, as well as examples captured by the French and the Spanish in their colonial military conflicts in the area following the Berlin Congress. I am attaching some Spanish trophies. If those were from the Rif War, it would date them to the 1920s.

[JoeCanada42]

thanks for more input, Those are very nice swords, TVV, with what looks like Rhino , prestige prizes i would think, while my sword appears less fancy to put it nicely, which makes me think maybe the user was more likely to be carrying an older sword.

i did see many with similar bone handles as mine and i could attach a photo, again a much nicer sword.

[Jim McDougall]

I have always found the 'Maghrebi' sa'if (known as nimchas) fascinating and attractive swords. Teodor (TVV) has studied these probably more than anyone else I know and frankly I have learned a great deal on them from his insights and Kubur's well placed agreement on his comments I agree with as well.

As has been noted, there is little evidence of this hilt form prior to very late 16th century, early 17th. The hilt form probably evolved from Italian forms of the 16th century and diffused through the Arab trade spheres.

The term Maghrebi includes both Morocco and Algeria, where these swords prevailed, and were used by many tribal factions and groups, many of which were of course part of the Berber confederations. They were assembled with varied components following the traditional form hilt and typically with trade blades from various sources.

The reason the 19th century date assessment is most reasonable is that this period is that these were traditionally made up, often remounting older blades, and most recognized and had provenance to the colonial periods, as Teodor has noted.

The notes and suggestions on the symbols and decoration are most interesting, but typically these are most often aesthetically applied in these kinds of contexts. It is always tempting to seek symbolic imbuement on these ethnographic forms, and in some cases (as on the flyssa) they do exist, but not in those on this sword in my opinion.

The 'red numbers' on this example seem to me to correspond to such numbers from museum or collection markings.

The often 'lesser' quality of many of these 'nimchas' does not disqualify them as genuine tribal weapons, as these were still kept and worn traditionally by men in more recent times. Much of the character of these remounted weapons were reliant on the skills and access too materials of the person doing the work.

Attached is my example of nimcha which believe is of course 19th c. probably c.1830s? with the 'tear drop' effect quillon terminals.

[JoeCanada42]

Nice Sword Jim, Gold embellishment near the hilt? i have seen others done with gold or silver. I was curious if my sword was missing that small piece, maybe someone sold it for scrap if it ever had a piece like that.. not shure what that piece is called.

I cleaned the peace of metal on my scabbard, and i wonder what its made out of? gold gilded silver, or just fancy colored brass..

I found a Website http://ageaeditora.com/en/nimcha-616/

where they have a Nimcha Very similar to mine.

this is what they say about date :
We can´t offer an exact dating of the piece as there is no documentary record of it´s entry in the museum. However, due to it´s geographical origin and that It´s entrance in the museum´s collection is previous to 1898 (start date of publication of the newsletter of the Commision of Monuments), we can suppose this is a sword manufactured in the 19th century. For this reason Is not too far fetched to suppose that it was used in the North African colonial wars of the second and third quarter of the 19th century. It could be a war spoil or have been purchased as a souvenir.