A large 19th century flintlock pistol

Will M · 3rd February 2021, 06:47 PM

Very nice pistol. As for reloading it can be done in seconds but does require a ramrod. Air space in a barrel between charge and ball can burst a barrel.
Having a ramrod secured in your belt or holster works. If a ramrod is not tightly housed in the pistols stock it can quickly be removed/lost upon firing.
I do not think the lack of ability for the pistol to house a ramrod in the stock is done believing there is no time to reload. If this were the case many would choose a pistol with a ramrod, having the ability to fire again is what all firearms designers strived for.

M ELEY · 3rd February 2021, 08:08 PM

You made a good point, Will, one that I had overlooked. I guess I had read somewhere that the lack of ramrod meant no need for one, but that does defy logic. Your comment that a ramrod could have just been carried separately makes total sense. I know of those Turkish pistols (which often served corsairs!) made both in the Mediterranean and in Turkey had a 'false' decorative ramrod that didn't actually come loose from the gun. These type pistols indeed had a separate and very distinctive rod carried separately.

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2021, 08:09 PM

It seems to me that in all the entries I have found, these flintlock pistols with the 'rounded off' terminus of the stock void of ramrod attachment, are stated 'Belgian sea service' . In some cases they are noted as Dutch.
Whatever the case, they were apparently produced in considerable volume and as I noted earlier, England was a key client in supplying her navy.

Most of the examples are dated from 1800-1820, and are described by well regarded dealers and auctions.

This is an interesting discussion on the dynamics of combat in which these were used and why the absence of ramrod. The purpose of these pistols was to create havoc and injuries amidst a mass of opponents, much as with the blunderbusses and deck guns.
This was the reason for the heft and large bore barrels, effectively 'scatter gun' tactics. These were most likely loaded with 'buck and ball', that is varying dimension shot, or whatever ball was available to create a barrage in a single shot (as Mark well describes as partridge shot).

Just as in a cavalry charge, once the gun was spent, it became either a bludgeon or was released. As with cavalry, these weapons would be better kept than lost so the lanyard was intended to keep the gun at hand, not inaccessible or lost overboard.

As Will has mentioned, the idea of reloading in haste or in a charge or melee is typically doomed to disaster. Also as he notes, in excessive movement etc. the ramrod could be lost, which is why later there were swivels designed that kept them attached on many percussion guns.

A very salient point Mark brings up, private purchase, as with merchant vessels would be exempt from many required markings.

Attached several other examples of 'Belgian Sea Service' pistols, in one instance in a pair, hence 'two shots' (a la' Blackbeard with his 'brace' of 'Queen Anne's'. ).

An analogy: my Caucasian percussion pistol, note the large ball butt for use as a bludgeon, the lanyard, and noticeably, no ramrod.
This was likely made in Liege as well.

M ELEY · 4th February 2021, 05:39 AM

Thank you for these great pics, Jim. I love that pistol with the butt cap you posted! As noted, I have seen multiple examples all listed as 'naval', which makes sense. I had a look at that mark and I'm almost 100% positive that it is a V and not a W under the crown. British private purchase, I'm assuming. British ships at this time were forming privateer vessels to attack both French (Napoleonic Wars) and American (War of 1812) shipping. Likewise, English ships needed defense against enemy privateers. Napoleon had already taken Denmark and even that nation had pirates out attacking English shipping!!

Some questions still remain, however. If Leige (Belgium) was the maker, could they still be selling to the Brits against Napoleonic France? Who controlled Belgium at the time? Would they be independent contractors and sell "to the enemy" anyway, much as some English cutlers sold to the colonists during the Revolution?

Here are some Leige markings, the earliest resembling a candlestick? Mine appears of the dating 1810. Of course, if this pistol was made after those two conflicts, it still would have been of use to 'discourage mutinies', or defend a frigate, tea clipper, etc, from hostiles in the ports of Indonesia, South Seas, etc.

corrado26 · 4th February 2021, 08:11 AM

Some time ago I wrote an article on such a pistol used in the Persian Army,
mmay be some of you are able to understand the German text.

M ELEY · 4th February 2021, 09:05 AM

Fascinating article, Corrado! Unfortunately, my German is very limited. From what you mentioned about Persian usage in the army, this is some of what I've heard about this type pistol. It served in other branches of the military and Leige shipped them out to the Middle East and possibly Africa(this last part not fully substantiated, but reported by several sources). Did your gun have a stamp to indicate Persian Empire? Was the ELG of the earlier or later stamp?

corrado26 · 4th February 2021, 09:41 AM

The "W" under a crown at the pistol in question stands for one of the Dutch kings William I-III who reigned one after the other between 1815 and 1890. So an exakt date of manufacture can not be stated.

The pistol in my article shows an mark "CD" under a crown which stands for Coquilhat & Digreffe, a Liège firm between 1853 and 1858. Over that the pistol shows the Perron-mark of Liège, so used since 1830. The lockplate shows a weak or badly cut mark of the arsenal of Isfahan/Persia, I added the same, but clearer mark of a same pistol and a British paget carbine. This means, that this pistol has been made at Liège between 1853 and 1858 under attendance of a Persian acceptance officer who stamped the lockplate befor it got hardened.

Very interesting is that lots of these pistols showed up between 1905 and 1925 in the catalogues of the US firm of Francis Bannermann, New York, where they have been offered at a price firstly of 3,50$ and lastly US$ 6,25.

fernando · 4th February 2021, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...I had a look at that mark and I'm almost 100% positive that it is a V and not a W under the crown. British private purchase, I'm assuming.

Private purchase ... 'one' possibility; as not an official contract. I wouldn't see the Brits importing guns from Liege with their local oval mark ... and later missing their own proof marks. The (imprecise) V under the crown on the lock plate, to my humble view, would hardly be the British proof mark created around 1670. I dare say ir is the mark of a Liege lock maker ... or spurious suff ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

controlled Belgium at the time?

Napoleon controlled Liege in 1810.It was under his rule that the mark LG in the oval was created ... and strictly enforced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Here are some Leige markings, the earliest resembling a candlestick?

The famous Perron (meaning steps ... of a tower). It was Liege's own mark, but it had no such strict enforcement.

3rd February 2021, 08:09 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	It seems to me that in all the entries I have found, these flintlock pistols with the 'rounded off' terminus of the stock void of ramrod attachment, are stated 'Belgian sea service' . In some cases they are noted as Dutch. Whatever the case, they were apparently produced in considerable volume and as I noted earlier, England was a key client in supplying her navy. Most of the examples are dated from 1800-1820, and are described by well regarded dealers and auctions. This is an interesting discussion on the dynamics of combat in which these were used and why the absence of ramrod. The purpose of these pistols was to create havoc and injuries amidst a mass of opponents, much as with the blunderbusses and deck guns. This was the reason for the heft and large bore barrels, effectively 'scatter gun' tactics. These were most likely loaded with 'buck and ball', that is varying dimension shot, or whatever ball was available to create a barrage in a single shot (as Mark well describes as partridge shot). Just as in a cavalry charge, once the gun was spent, it became either a bludgeon or was released. As with cavalry, these weapons would be better kept than lost so the lanyard was intended to keep the gun at hand, not inaccessible or lost overboard. As Will has mentioned, the idea of reloading in haste or in a charge or melee is typically doomed to disaster. Also as he notes, in excessive movement etc. the ramrod could be lost, which is why later there were swivels designed that kept them attached on many percussion guns. A very salient point Mark brings up, private purchase, as with merchant vessels would be exempt from many required markings. Attached several other examples of 'Belgian Sea Service' pistols, in one instance in a pair, hence 'two shots' (a la' Blackbeard with his 'brace' of 'Queen Anne's'. ). An analogy: my Caucasian percussion pistol, note the large ball butt for use as a bludgeon, the lanyard, and noticeably, no ramrod. This was likely made in Liege as well. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd February 2021 at 08:23 PM.

4th February 2021, 05:39 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you for these great pics, Jim. I love that pistol with the butt cap you posted! As noted, I have seen multiple examples all listed as 'naval', which makes sense. I had a look at that mark and I'm almost 100% positive that it is a V and not a W under the crown. British private purchase, I'm assuming. British ships at this time were forming privateer vessels to attack both French (Napoleonic Wars) and American (War of 1812) shipping. Likewise, English ships needed defense against enemy privateers. Napoleon had already taken Denmark and even that nation had pirates out attacking English shipping!! Some questions still remain, however. If Leige (Belgium) was the maker, could they still be selling to the Brits against Napoleonic France? Who controlled Belgium at the time? Would they be independent contractors and sell "to the enemy" anyway, much as some English cutlers sold to the colonists during the Revolution? Here are some Leige markings, the earliest resembling a candlestick? Mine appears of the dating 1810. Of course, if this pistol was made after those two conflicts, it still would have been of use to 'discourage mutinies', or defend a frigate, tea clipper, etc, from hostiles in the ports of Indonesia, South Seas, etc. Attached Images

4th February 2021, 08:11 AM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Some time ago I wrote an article on such a pistol used in the Persian Army, mmay be some of you are able to understand the German text. Attached Images

4th February 2021, 09:41 AM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	The "W" under a crown at the pistol in question stands for one of the Dutch kings William I-III who reigned one after the other between 1815 and 1890. So an exakt date of manufacture can not be stated. The pistol in my article shows an mark "CD" under a crown which stands for Coquilhat & Digreffe, a Liège firm between 1853 and 1858. Over that the pistol shows the Perron-mark of Liège, so used since 1830. The lockplate shows a weak or badly cut mark of the arsenal of Isfahan/Persia, I added the same, but clearer mark of a same pistol and a British paget carbine. This means, that this pistol has been made at Liège between 1853 and 1858 under attendance of a Persian acceptance officer who stamped the lockplate befor it got hardened. Very interesting is that lots of these pistols showed up between 1905 and 1925 in the catalogues of the US firm of Francis Bannermann, New York, where they have been offered at a price firstly of 3,50$ and lastly US$ 6,25. Attached Images Last edited by corrado26; 4th February 2021 at 09:57 AM.

3rd February 2021, 06:47 PM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	Very nice pistol. As for reloading it can be done in seconds but does require a ramrod. Air space in a barrel between charge and ball can burst a barrel. Having a ramrod secured in your belt or holster works. If a ramrod is not tightly housed in the pistols stock it can quickly be removed/lost upon firing. I do not think the lack of ability for the pistol to house a ramrod in the stock is done believing there is no time to reload. If this were the case many would choose a pistol with a ramrod, having the ability to fire again is what all firearms designers strived for.

3rd February 2021, 08:08 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	You made a good point, Will, one that I had overlooked. I guess I had read somewhere that the lack of ramrod meant no need for one, but that does defy logic. Your comment that a ramrod could have just been carried separately makes total sense. I know of those Turkish pistols (which often served corsairs!) made both in the Mediterranean and in Turkey had a 'false' decorative ramrod that didn't actually come loose from the gun. These type pistols indeed had a separate and very distinctive rod carried separately.

4th February 2021, 09:05 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Fascinating article, Corrado! Unfortunately, my German is very limited. From what you mentioned about Persian usage in the army, this is some of what I've heard about this type pistol. It served in other branches of the military and Leige shipped them out to the Middle East and possibly Africa(this last part not fully substantiated, but reported by several sources). Did your gun have a stamp to indicate Persian Empire? Was the ELG of the earlier or later stamp?