Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you for your comments Jean.

I have not the smallest difficulty in acknowledging that you have every right to your own opinion, Jean.

The mendak shown by David is unquestionably parijoto, but whether it is suited to a Solo hilt or a Jogja hilt I have absolutely no way of knowing.

Hello Alan,
It is not my opinion but Haryoguritno's one who distinguishes between the 2 types of mendak, see pages 279 to 281 of the book "Keris Jawa" (and also in the EK pages 289 & 290).
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

I apologise Jean, I thought it was your opinion also, because of what you wrote in Post #23, however, if you do not share this opinion with KJ & EK, but are only citing those books as references, then I understand what you mean.

Still, this is only playing with words, I really don't care what EK & KJ say, these books were written by men, men who drew their opinions from other men, and some of those other men were my teachers also. In fact, I seldom draw upon published books for my own opinions, nor for what I write.

I do use terminology from published books when I write for what is principally a readership that is not literate in Bahasa Indonesia or Basa Jawa, and I do that because it makes communication easy, but often my vocabulary and my understandings that I use in this writing vary somewhat from my vocabulary and understandings that I use in communication with people I know in Solo. I try not to take issue with minor variations in understanding and vocabulary, because these little things are really of no consequence to anybody except hardcore collectors, and they do not impact upon the core of keris understanding.

Jean, I really did not want to get into this quoting of books area:- I do not draw upon books for my own opinions, and I feel it is not particularly useful to rely upon a book when I have over 50 years experience of involvement in the world of the keris in Jawa:- I prefer to rely upon my own teachers and my own observations.

The reason for this is that my teachers all had a high degree of contempt for books written about keris. I lost count of the number of times I heard:-

"Sayang sekali orang-orang yang mau menulis buku-buku tentang keris tidak belajar keris dulu"

or similar equally derogatory comments.

My teachers were what we might think of as "old school", and they had little time for anything that did not agree with their own opinions, which they had formed over a lifetime of involvement in the world of the keris in Jawa Tengah. All of my teachers were based in Surakarta, and my principal teacher was totally committed to the Surakarta school and was inclined to dismiss the beliefs held by the Ngayogyakarta school as more than a little erroneous. In fact, I found it to be wise not to even mention Jogja in his presence.

I like to think of myself as somewhat more tolerant than my teachers. In many keris related matters I am prepared to accept that there is room for opinion. Nothing --- or at least almost nothing --- is graven in stone.

Because of this rather flexible attitude, and I guess also because I am not Javanese, nor am I a permanent member of any Javanese community, I am not prepared to get into debates about what is "right", and what is "wrong" when it comes to the keris.

Any culture is owned by the people who are a part of that culture, people who do not belong to the culture can only comment upon it, not arbitrate upon the beliefs held by those within the culture. However, my teachers were a part of keris culture as it was in Solo during their lifetimes, and my opinions in respect of the keris do in many respects reflect the opinions of my teachers.

If I respect the opinions of my teachers, would it be respectful of me to ignore their opinions and adopt the opinions of journalists and people who publish books for their own reasons?

I think not.

Equally, would it be respectful of me to be critical of the writings of people who are no longer with us?

Again, I think not.

Even though the opinions of these writers often are at variance with that which I have been taught.

So, even though you have not stated your opinion in this matter Jean, but have merely cited references that put forward an understanding that differs from my own, I feel it might be useful to consider a few things that contributed to what can be read in EK & KJ.

EK published in 2004, and was compiled by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, he was a journalist, he tended towards the Jogja school, in fact, I think it would be fair to say that he was heavily influenced by the Jogja school. Although he, himself was not recognised as any sort of authority on the keris, the man he worked with in keris writing was recognised in Jogja as an Ahli Keris. This man was Suwarsono Lumintu. I believe Lumintu is still with us. He was very influential in the Jogja school, and contributed heavily to current beliefs held by the Jogja keris community and other keris communities that align themselves with the Jogja school.

It is important to note that Harsrinuksmo uses the word "compiled" (disusun) for his work, he is clear that he did not actually express his own opinions, he gathered the opinions of others (principally the opinions of Lumintu in respect of Jawa) and assembled those opinions into book form.

EK was preceded by another book by Harsrinuksmo, again it was a compilation, not his own opinions, and again he worked with Lumintu in the production of this book. This book was "Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional -- (Keris dan senjata tradisional Indonesia lainnya)" , and was published in 1988.

Apart from these two books a number of other little booklets and pamphlets that dealt with various aspects of the keris were published by Harsrinuksmo.

Everything produced by Harsrinuksmo and Lumintu was targeted at the collector market. All these books and booklets and pamphlets were books for collectors, and in all cases they reflected the beliefs of some keris collectors in Indonesia, during the period when they were produced. Although Harsrinuksmo acknowledges that he has drawn upon publications in various languages he does not include a bibliography nor does he use citations.

KJ was written by Haryono Haryoguritno, that is, it is original work by Haryoguritno, it is not a compilation. As original work the contents of this book must be understood as the opinions of the author, but we know that Haryoguritno gathered together the material for this book over many years, he drew upon previously published works, and his acknowledgements contained in the book reads like a list of prominent people. He provides a bibliography but not citations.

Again, this is a book for collectors and if considered from this perspective, probably the most useful book for a keris collector that has ever been published. But that does not mean that everything in this book agrees with the opinions of the people who taught me, nor with my own opinions.

KJ was copyrighted in 2005 and it draws heavily on EK.

Within the world of the keris there is plenty of room for variation in opinion, and if we look at the works that deal with keris, and that go back into the colonial era and progress to the present day, we find that opinions constantly vary. Not only do we find that opinion varies over time, we find that opinion varies from locality to locality within Indonesia, it varies from one keris study group to another, and it varies from one person to another within the same group.

In the case of the keris it is a mistake to believe that just because one person holds a particular opinion, that opinion is without question correct. Just because the opinion has been published in a book does not make it correct. The opinion may be accepted as correct by a greater or lesser number of people, but even that acceptance does not guarantee its correctness.

My own opinions in respect of the keris were formed to a large degree by my teachers, and in many instances these opinions have been re-enforced by my own observation of common practice and opinion within Surakarta during the period from 1974 to 2015.

However, I have no problem at all in accepting the opinions of others as perfectly valid opinions from their own perspective.

So Jean, even though you have now stated that these opinions put forward in EK and KJ are not your opinions, if you feel inclined to embrace these opinions and make them your own, I would never argue against your freedom to do so.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have just had it pointed out to me that I should have made something clearer than I have in my previous Post #26. I did not want to labour the point, as that post is already too long, and what I've been told to make clear is something that I believe everybody with a keris interest already knows anyway.

I won't mince words with this, I'll try to put it plain & simple:-

a lot of the names and associations presently in use by the current generation of keris collectors are modern inventions, the names and ideas might be in use within one group of collectors, they might have been invented by a dealer, or they might have been invented by an author, but many of these names and ideas are strange to the older generation of keris literate people.

When EK came on to the market I was in Solo, I bought a copy and later that morning I went to visit Pauzan. I'd only flicked through it, and it looked pretty impressive to me, but Pauzan had had a copy for a couple of weeks and had been through it, cover to cover. I asked him what he thought of it. I cannot remember his response word for word, but the sense of what he said was approximately:-

"I think a lot of it has been invented. Where did all these names come from? I don't know these names, nobody I know knows these names. Where did he get them? His first book (Pauzan meant Ensiklopedi Budaya) was good, but if you want to publish a new book about the same thing you need something to make people buy it"

Before Pauzan became an empu he had been dealing in keris for around 15 years, the last 6 or 7 of which he had dealt professionally in a stall in Pasar Triwindu. From about 1980 or '81 he had been making keris and was also probably the biggest trade supplier of high quality historic keris in Central Jawa.
20 years as a dealer, followed by 25 years as a dealer and maker, and all this right at the heart of the Javanese world of the keris. 40 odd years experience at least. Yet a new book compiled by a journalist with the assistance of a leading light of the Jogja keris community left Pauzan puzzled by all the new words that suddenly appeared in an area of knowledge that he knew inside out & back to front.

Draw your own conclusions.

KJ became available after EK

The biggest value of both EK & KJ is that they provide a common lexicon, these two books have established a language full of names, terms, ideas that are available to everybody for use and seem to have become a common language for the current generation of collectors. In a world where people use online communication and phone communication, the presence of a common language is valuable, so no matter if it is right or wrong, invented or brought back into use, or even pulled off the wall, these words and ideas that were strange to Pauzan when EK was published do serve a purpose today. Just so long as we do not believe that those words and ideas are universally accepted and inarguably correct.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thank you very much for you very detailed and interesting comments. They show the complexity and uncertainty of the kris world for the Western collectors like myself, and the differences between the Yogya and Solo kris schools which cause more confusion.
David, did you imagine that your pic will raise such a debate?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, its difficult.

I didn't imagine that a few little comments on a tiny, insignificant, little mendakipun would get any response other than an "Oh yeah".

But just one thing Jean:- there is no debate.

When people debate they try to convince the other party that one point of view has more merit than the other.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I truly do not care at all whether anybody accepts my comments as valid, or not. All I'm doing is just passing on a little of my experience:- accept or reject I don't care either way.

Actually the differences go further than just Solo & Jogja. I personally find some of the East Jawa opinions a bit hard to accept. Then of course we have the variation in opinions between people living on opposite sides of the road.

Its easier just to think in terms of everybody being right --- in their own way.

[Interested Party]

We are discussing 3 books I have wanted to read. Whatever their validity.
I read the Apocrypha so I am ok with dissenting opinions. I have a manuscript type copy of the EBN and need to purchase a copy of the original with pictures to have it make more sense.
I have not found a copy of the EK or Keris Jawa in English. Do translations exist? I thought they did but not having found one is making me doubt my belief.
And of course there is still my quest for a copy of Gronnman at a reasonable price. Tammens was not as helpful as I had hoped him to be.

PS I have found this thread fascinating. More information on mendaks than the rest of my library combined!

[A. G. Maisey]

EBN is not a low cost book. I know of two copies that were sold in Indonesia more than 5 years ago at the equivalent of approximately $US500 each, this book has apparently become a collector's item in its own right.

I have not heard of an English translation of either EK or KJ. Both these books are full of pictures and for a collector as distinct from a researcher, the pictures together with captions are probably enough.

The KITLV book that contains Groneman, ISBN 9789067183291, over the last few years has sold for between $US250 & $US350. My understanding is that this book is easily available.

Actually, this perceived barrier of language is not as high as one might think. Bahasa Indonesia is a very simple language to learn to a basic level --- after "basic" it can get a bit tricky, but with an Echols & Shadily I reckon anybody could get what they really need from EK, and perhaps KJ.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

David, did you imagine that your pic will raise such a debate?

LOL! Ahhhhh...nope, didn't see that coming.
Though once again, like the opinions you expressed, not MY pic. LOL!
I think this has been an interesting discussion, though as Alan points out, his salient points should not be anything new to those that have had an interest in keris for any reasonable period of time.
I do feel a bid for Max, however, since this thread does seem to have gone off on more than one tangent. Hopefully he feels his questions about his keris have been properly addressed.