Kindjal? for ID please

Interested Party · 27th January 2021, 01:59 PM

Now I am not an expert and only know what I can read and very rarely see. These following issues are what I ask myself. Everyone please feel free to correct my ignorance.

We are using a date from the sheath not the blade. The onion at the tip seems to me like possibly a later repair. If not isn't a larger final on the chape a sign of mid nineteenth manufacture? I If one compares the twisted wire at the top of the throat with the hilt that meets it, the hilt is considerable more worn. It could just be a repair, there have been several, but sheaths we know often are replaced before the knife is worn out. What did the sheath originally have as a covering? Red leather, shagreen, cloth and galloon?

If we look at it then without the sheath. Is it mono-steel or laminate? Wouldn't mono-steel would to push the date of manufacture back. It's profile is hard to tell from the picture angles but they seem vaguely triangular and intended as a stabbing weapon. Coupled with the wide flattened rib in the forte this would move my estimation to an earlier period. Then there is the koftgari. The pattern on the front of the blade at least seems to imitate popular stiles from Tbilisi. Has anyone seen a 18th century Circassian kindjal with a vine meander that resembled bird shapes with providence? Of course the koftgari could be a later edition this piece has obviously has a wonderful working life. In one picture you can still see the original grind marks on the back edge while at least from the camera angle the front edge has been re-sharpened. Back to the koftgari, which makes me wonder, is it Circassian piece or a multi ethnic piece of someone working in Georgia in a Circassian style? Who knows this piece is obviously well traveled, but to me 1794 does seem early. I would love to know what all the inscriptions say and in what language? As I led off with; I'm no expert. Just an interested party raising more questions than answers

Kubur · 27th January 2021, 06:21 PM

Well said, I cannot agree more.
It's a shame that we don't have a translation.
All the forum members will agree on a mid 19th c. date without the inscriptions. All the kindjals with gold seals that I found in my books are from the mid 19thc.
With the inscriptions it's another story, because the inscriptions looks consistent with the date and the scabbard.
And usualy blades are older than the dresses... not the opposite.
And it looks like a 0 and not a 5, nevertheless I still believe that the guy put a dot instead of a 0.
Or it's just a commemorative date.

Tracy · 27th January 2021, 09:35 PM

I've attached the letter I mentioned earlier from the ROM. Ed Keall was an assistant curator at the time - his qualifications are listed on the ROM website (google "Ed Keall Royal Ontario Museum"). It's possible he would revise his translation if he looked at it again with ~40 more years experience under his belt. Let me know if more photos (different areas, different angles) would help - thanks!

Tracy · 28th January 2021, 07:36 PM

Deleted repeated post

27th January 2021, 09:35 PM	#3
Tracy Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: British Columbia Posts: 4	I've attached the letter I mentioned earlier from the ROM. Ed Keall was an assistant curator at the time - his qualifications are listed on the ROM website (google "Ed Keall Royal Ontario Museum"). It's possible he would revise his translation if he looked at it again with ~40 more years experience under his belt. Let me know if more photos (different areas, different angles) would help - thanks! Attached Images

28th January 2021, 07:36 PM	#4
Tracy Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: British Columbia Posts: 4	Deleted repeated post Last edited by Tracy; 29th January 2021 at 07:23 PM.

27th January 2021, 01:59 PM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 505	Now I am not an expert and only know what I can read and very rarely see. These following issues are what I ask myself. Everyone please feel free to correct my ignorance. We are using a date from the sheath not the blade. The onion at the tip seems to me like possibly a later repair. If not isn't a larger final on the chape a sign of mid nineteenth manufacture? I If one compares the twisted wire at the top of the throat with the hilt that meets it, the hilt is considerable more worn. It could just be a repair, there have been several, but sheaths we know often are replaced before the knife is worn out. What did the sheath originally have as a covering? Red leather, shagreen, cloth and galloon? If we look at it then without the sheath. Is it mono-steel or laminate? Wouldn't mono-steel would to push the date of manufacture back. It's profile is hard to tell from the picture angles but they seem vaguely triangular and intended as a stabbing weapon. Coupled with the wide flattened rib in the forte this would move my estimation to an earlier period. Then there is the koftgari. The pattern on the front of the blade at least seems to imitate popular stiles from Tbilisi. Has anyone seen a 18th century Circassian kindjal with a vine meander that resembled bird shapes with providence? Of course the koftgari could be a later edition this piece has obviously has a wonderful working life. In one picture you can still see the original grind marks on the back edge while at least from the camera angle the front edge has been re-sharpened. Back to the koftgari, which makes me wonder, is it Circassian piece or a multi ethnic piece of someone working in Georgia in a Circassian style? Who knows this piece is obviously well traveled, but to me 1794 does seem early. I would love to know what all the inscriptions say and in what language? As I led off with; I'm no expert. Just an interested party raising more questions than answers

27th January 2021, 06:21 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well said, I cannot agree more. It's a shame that we don't have a translation. All the forum members will agree on a mid 19th c. date without the inscriptions. All the kindjals with gold seals that I found in my books are from the mid 19thc. With the inscriptions it's another story, because the inscriptions looks consistent with the date and the scabbard. And usualy blades are older than the dresses... not the opposite. And it looks like a 0 and not a 5, nevertheless I still believe that the guy put a dot instead of a 0. Or it's just a commemorative date.