Watering on a tulwar blade

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2005, 04:15 PM

I think you should be able to see the koftgari scratches here.

Battara · 26th January 2005, 08:55 PM

That is some thick koftgari indeed! As for that much area not covered by koftgari, I don't know, except that perhaps it was prepared by someone else and not as much room was needed afterall.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2005, 09:31 PM

Hi Battara,

Yes, I have been wondering ever since I got it, why such a big area was needed, and I still can't figure it out. You might be right, that some other decoration was planned but not made - who knows?

Jens

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2005, 01:31 AM

Hello Jeff,
Very interesting photo you have posted, which is the distinctly recognizable 'armor piercing' point on late 17th-mid 18th c. Tatar sabres. These sabres obviously are quite contrary to the blades with widened false edge points or 'yelmans' that we are considering, and suggest a very different perspective in swordsmanship. The term 'Tatar' has often been used generally with reference to nomadic steppes tribes and thus trying to more clearly define the specific use of these unusual sabres would be difficult.
These swords are discussed in "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, from "Art, Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol. I, 1979.

While the development of the curved sword/sabre has brought considerable debate and speculation, one of the key components of many of these forms has been the yelman, and is equally controversial.
It seems generally held that this blade feature developed concurrently with curved sabre blade forms with gentle radius to point, and on the widened form, a reverse edge on straight swords which evolved into double biconcave curves that gradually displayed a visible angle. This seems to have evolved into a widened point with subtle progression to curve in the blade. This feature is believed to have evolved from the east, quite possibly Chinese frontier regions such as Turkestan,and found its way to Persian regions. The Mongol curved blades had already existed in the subcontinent by the 14th c. and the Timurid rulers of Khorasan held profound influence in India, of course leading to the developing modified blades.

It seems that the sharpened reverse edge in widened form added weight and momentum to the dynamics of the favored slashing drawcut.

This material is discussed by Dr. Syed Zafar Haider in "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India", Lahore, pp.169-171.

I think the idea of discussing the yelman as a developed feature on certain sabre blades is a great idea, and would be an excellent independant thread.

Very best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 12:44 PM

You go, Jeff. I'm not sure what that detail you show is from. Is there a bigger shot at the end of page 1 or something? Yes, I'm checking page two first

The "heavy" narrow reinforced point might be viewed as transposed from daggers or spears, and not neccessarily cross-cultural influence. Some discussion of terms may be helpful. An actual false edge is a rear edge meant to cut. It is a medieval European term, often applied to the use of double-edged broadswords;the front edge is "true" the back edge is "false" This can be dictated by the design of the sword, or by how it is held at the moment; either use is valid. A point where the spine suddenly comes down at an angle or concavity (as viewed from the side) is a clip or clipped point. If the back edge is bevelled wider than a peaked spine, but not for cutting (either a relatively obtuse angle or a rebated edge), this is spoken of as a swedged/bevelled spine (the term "swedge" is often incorrectly applied to a clip; this confusion seems to arise because clips are often swedged.). AFAIK yelman per see refers only to those that are "dropped edges"; ie that widen suddenly at the beginning of the part-length false edge. There are unsharpened widenings, as on Mexican cuchilla del (monte? costa? I forget) and some pseudo-yelmans that won't cut and can't be sharpened, and we could use a name for them, but I don't know that we have one. There are also, common on tulwar and other sabres, part-length false edges that are not "dropped" like a true yelman, nor clipped. BTW, in handling yelman swords it is my observation that they tend to be light-tipped, and it is not so much wieght or mass the yelman adds, but width to absorb vibration, instead of mass and thickness, as with daito. Also, of course, that back-hand cut is a killer.

26th January 2005, 04:15 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think you should be able to see the koftgari scratches here. Attached Images

26th January 2005, 08:55 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	That is some thick koftgari indeed! As for that much area not covered by koftgari, I don't know, except that perhaps it was prepared by someone else and not as much room was needed afterall.

26th January 2005, 09:31 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Battara, Yes, I have been wondering ever since I got it, why such a big area was needed, and I still can't figure it out. You might be right, that some other decoration was planned but not made - who knows? Jens

27th January 2005, 01:31 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hello Jeff, Very interesting photo you have posted, which is the distinctly recognizable 'armor piercing' point on late 17th-mid 18th c. Tatar sabres. These sabres obviously are quite contrary to the blades with widened false edge points or 'yelmans' that we are considering, and suggest a very different perspective in swordsmanship. The term 'Tatar' has often been used generally with reference to nomadic steppes tribes and thus trying to more clearly define the specific use of these unusual sabres would be difficult. These swords are discussed in "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, from "Art, Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol. I, 1979. While the development of the curved sword/sabre has brought considerable debate and speculation, one of the key components of many of these forms has been the yelman, and is equally controversial. It seems generally held that this blade feature developed concurrently with curved sabre blade forms with gentle radius to point, and on the widened form, a reverse edge on straight swords which evolved into double biconcave curves that gradually displayed a visible angle. This seems to have evolved into a widened point with subtle progression to curve in the blade. This feature is believed to have evolved from the east, quite possibly Chinese frontier regions such as Turkestan,and found its way to Persian regions. The Mongol curved blades had already existed in the subcontinent by the 14th c. and the Timurid rulers of Khorasan held profound influence in India, of course leading to the developing modified blades. It seems that the sharpened reverse edge in widened form added weight and momentum to the dynamics of the favored slashing drawcut. This material is discussed by Dr. Syed Zafar Haider in "Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India", Lahore, pp.169-171. I think the idea of discussing the yelman as a developed feature on certain sabre blades is a great idea, and would be an excellent independant thread. Very best regards, Jim

27th January 2005, 12:44 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	You go, Jeff. I'm not sure what that detail you show is from. Is there a bigger shot at the end of page 1 or something? Yes, I'm checking page two first The "heavy" narrow reinforced point might be viewed as transposed from daggers or spears, and not neccessarily cross-cultural influence. Some discussion of terms may be helpful. An actual false edge is a rear edge meant to cut. It is a medieval European term, often applied to the use of double-edged broadswords;the front edge is "true" the back edge is "false" This can be dictated by the design of the sword, or by how it is held at the moment; either use is valid. A point where the spine suddenly comes down at an angle or concavity (as viewed from the side) is a clip or clipped point. If the back edge is bevelled wider than a peaked spine, but not for cutting (either a relatively obtuse angle or a rebated edge), this is spoken of as a swedged/bevelled spine (the term "swedge" is often incorrectly applied to a clip; this confusion seems to arise because clips are often swedged.). AFAIK yelman per see refers only to those that are "dropped edges"; ie that widen suddenly at the beginning of the part-length false edge. There are unsharpened widenings, as on Mexican cuchilla del (monte? costa? I forget) and some pseudo-yelmans that won't cut and can't be sharpened, and we could use a name for them, but I don't know that we have one. There are also, common on tulwar and other sabres, part-length false edges that are not "dropped" like a true yelman, nor clipped. BTW, in handling yelman swords it is my observation that they tend to be light-tipped, and it is not so much wieght or mass the yelman adds, but width to absorb vibration, instead of mass and thickness, as with daito. Also, of course, that back-hand cut is a killer.