Baluchistan/Omani shamshir

ALEX · 5th January 2021, 10:43 PM

Ariel, an impressive shamshir. The baldric is awesome. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions on dating, hopefully Kwiatek and others will have more insights. Also, you mentioned Sindh and Baluchistan, and so it is Pakistani, not Indian, right?

ariel · 6th January 2021, 03:15 PM

My best guess it dates to the 19th century.
History of Balochistan is complex. Balochistan belonged to Afghanistan, but eastern Balochistan was captured by Nader Shah and became part of Iran. After the fall of Durrani dynasty, Balochistan became factually independent, but in the 1870s and especially after the second Afghani war it became part of British India with the exception of Gwadar that belonged to Oman. After the great division of British India in 1948 it was captured by Pakistan. Gwadar was sold to Pakistan in 1958, but even now about a third of Omanis are descendants of Baloch immigrants.

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Since I place it in the 19th century it could not have been Pakistani: Pakistan did not exist yet. IMHO, the most correct one would be “Indian” or “Omani”. Further hairsplitting: since these swords are usually attributed(!) to Hyderabad in Sindh, we could attribute it to British India. Although, had it been made before the infamous “ Peccavi” ( I have sinned) by general Napier in 1843, we should call it Sindhi.

Go figure....

However, geography and history aside, it carries both “Indian” and Omani features..
Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc.

I love these mixes, both geographical and repurposed:-)

Kubur · 6th January 2021, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc.

I agree but it seems that Iran/ Persian has been forgotten somewhere.

Let me add

Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, "Farsi", “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”.

Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab Indo-Persian etc.

When you look at the sword: blade, quillons, pommel, leather on the scabbard, the Persian influence is obvious...

ALEX · 6th January 2021, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

... When you look at the sword: blade, quillons, pommel, leather on the scabbard, the Persian influence is obvious...

I had the very same thought, strong Persian influence and Pakistani workmanship. Persia is also closest neighbor to Baluchistan I believe.

ariel · 7th January 2021, 02:55 AM

I might have added Persia, but reconsidered.
The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely). It might have been forged in India, Afghanistan or locally, in Sindh. Itinerant bladesmiths were dime a dozen in that part of the world. Also, in the 19 century Persian blades were exported in thousands all over Eurasia: Caucasus, Aravia, Ottoman Empire, Afghanistan, India, Russian Empire..
IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture. An Indian sword with Persian blade is a “ Tulwar with Persian blade”. Similarly, a Shashka with Persian, German, Russian or Polish blade is still Caucasian and a saber with a bulbous pommel is still an Ottoman Kilij despite a Mamluke blade. I have a couple of Tulwars with British blades, a Moroccan Nimcha with ( what was suggested here) Indian blade, and another one with a likely German trade blade destined for South America, and Ethiopian Gurades with German and Russian blades.
As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-)

This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard. It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings. Would you invoke Persian connection if the blade had Indian ricasso?
That was my thought.
I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion.

Kubur · 7th January 2021, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion.

I'm glad to read that.
So let's do it

First, of course, you are right it's a balutch sword.

then

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture.
As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-)

I agree too. And a Spanish / South American blade on a Moroccan berber sword is a Berber sword...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely).

This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard.

It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings.

Here I disagree, you have 2 suspension rings on the scabbard.

The gorgeous baldric was added later.

The leather work and guard look Persian.

I feel that this sword was a Persian shamshir refurbished in Balutchistan, with Omani silver work influences...

ihutch1 · 22nd September 2021, 08:58 AM

Ariel, what a beautiful, complete set. Very lucky!

Apologies for the imposition, but may I request a photo of the back side of the baldric straps? I'm very interested in the design and construction, I'd like to have a go replicating it.

Thanks for sharing this!

7th January 2021, 02:55 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I might have added Persia, but reconsidered. The only Persian feature here is the blade ( likely). It might have been forged in India, Afghanistan or locally, in Sindh. Itinerant bladesmiths were dime a dozen in that part of the world. Also, in the 19 century Persian blades were exported in thousands all over Eurasia: Caucasus, Aravia, Ottoman Empire, Afghanistan, India, Russian Empire.. IMHO, the national character of the sword is determined by its furniture. An Indian sword with Persian blade is a “ Tulwar with Persian blade”. Similarly, a Shashka with Persian, German, Russian or Polish blade is still Caucasian and a saber with a bulbous pommel is still an Ottoman Kilij despite a Mamluke blade. I have a couple of Tulwars with British blades, a Moroccan Nimcha with ( what was suggested here) Indian blade, and another one with a likely German trade blade destined for South America, and Ethiopian Gurades with German and Russian blades. As you can see, I am an adherent of the Polish school of attribution:-) This saber comes from a part of India, has a typical Sindhi handle, but has Omani feature of silver wire by the crossguard. It has an Arabian baldric instead of Persian suspension rings. Would you invoke Persian connection if the blade had Indian ricasso? That was my thought. I am not wedded to it. Would love to discuss and change my opinion. Last edited by ariel; 7th January 2021 at 03:20 AM.

5th January 2021, 10:43 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ariel, an impressive shamshir. The baldric is awesome. It'd be interesting to hear the opinions on dating, hopefully Kwiatek and others will have more insights. Also, you mentioned Sindh and Baluchistan, and so it is Pakistani, not Indian, right?

6th January 2021, 03:15 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My best guess it dates to the 19th century. History of Balochistan is complex. Balochistan belonged to Afghanistan, but eastern Balochistan was captured by Nader Shah and became part of Iran. After the fall of Durrani dynasty, Balochistan became factually independent, but in the 1870s and especially after the second Afghani war it became part of British India with the exception of Gwadar that belonged to Oman. After the great division of British India in 1948 it was captured by Pakistan. Gwadar was sold to Pakistan in 1958, but even now about a third of Omanis are descendants of Baloch immigrants. Thus, and using our current geography it may be “ Baloch”, “Afghani” Indian”, “Pakistani” or “ Omani”. Since I place it in the 19th century it could not have been Pakistani: Pakistan did not exist yet. IMHO, the most correct one would be “Indian” or “Omani”. Further hairsplitting: since these swords are usually attributed(!) to Hyderabad in Sindh, we could attribute it to British India. Although, had it been made before the infamous “ Peccavi” ( I have sinned) by general Napier in 1843, we should call it Sindhi. Go figure.... However, geography and history aside, it carries both “Indian” and Omani features.. Thus, as we have discussed earlier, we can call it Baloch, Hyderabadi, Sindhi, Indo-Arab etc. I love these mixes, both geographical and repurposed:-)

22nd September 2021, 08:58 AM	#7
ihutch1 Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 6	Ariel, what a beautiful, complete set. Very lucky! Apologies for the imposition, but may I request a photo of the back side of the baldric straps? I'm very interested in the design and construction, I'd like to have a go replicating it. Thanks for sharing this!