Show us your ball butt.... pistol

corrado26 · 26th December 2020, 06:08 PM

....and here I add some fotos of another one with ballbutt and a fantasy gunmaker's signature on the lockplate

Kubur · 26th December 2020, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

....and here I add some fotos of another one with ballbutt and a fantasy gunmaker's signature on the lockplate

It's the first time that I see a ballbutt with a trigger guard...

I have another ballbutt with glass inlays and barrel band...

qusko · 27th December 2020, 01:29 PM

Rick, Kubur,

Thanks for your replies! Adding for others some new pictures I've found.

qusko · 27th December 2020, 05:37 PM

Plus some more ..

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2020, 09:46 PM

These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c.
Pretty simple.

Kubur · 30th December 2020, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c.
Pretty simple.

Hi Jim,
Is this your secret garden? I was thinking that you were obsessed by swords only... I'm sure that Rick will comment the lock and the barrel better than me. Very nice pistol
Best wishes

rickystl · 2nd January 2021, 02:53 PM

Some great photos of these ball butt pistols. And Kubur, you are probably right about it's Turkish origins.

The beautiful example posted by Corado is also the first pistol of this type I've seen with a trigger guard. Looks like it was possibly added later (?) If so, it appears to have been done sometime during the period. Notice the rear of the guard being attached with screws versus the more typical nail on attachment.

Jim's pistol is very interesting. Obviously of Caucasian manufacture. Simply made, but with a back-action style percussion lock. As with other guns from this Region and time, guns made with percussion locks are less commonly encountered. It's the belief of many that this was due to the small supply of percussion caps available in the Region and their high cost.

The back-action percussion lock seems to have appeared sometime around the mid-1840's. Some gunsmiths felt that this action was stronger than the traditional front-action locks as used on most percussion and flintlock guns with the mainspring being positioned to the rear of the breech area versus the front. Other gunsmiths thought that it just transferred the weak area of the wood stock from the front lock bolt to the rear of the pistol grip. In fact, this is still being debated today by gun enthusiasts. Never the less, both front action and back action locks were used during the 1840-1870 period.
One advantage of the back-action lock for pistols was that it allowed the use of larger caliber barrels without the need for the extra wood around the lock area. And Jim's pistol is an excellent example of this. This is also why almost every example of double barrel shotguns that became popular during this time frame have (smaller) rear-action locks.

Hopefully, one day, I'll find one of these Turkish styled ball but pistols. Still looking.

Meantime, my only ball butt Caucasian pistol with the interesting feature that the stock was made from a single horn.

Rick

fernando · 2nd January 2021, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jim,
Is this your secret garden? I was thinking that you were obsessed by swords only...

Simply astounding, Jim. Have i ever heard that you have got rid of all your arms collection in favor of space for a library in your RV ... AKA bookmobile ?

.

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2021, 05:53 PM

Hi Kubur, Ricky and Fernando!!!
Thank you so much guys!
Ricky thank you so much for the great assessment and explanation.

Yes, I do have a secret garden

of sorts, but mostly stored away for the 15 years 'on the road' in the 'Bookmobile'. Over time I did get a few guns, but true the swords always have captivated me in the 50 years of collecting.
While intriguing, the guns are far too complicated for my non mechanical understanding, but as always, historically I like them from aesthetic point of view.
I really admire the knowledge of you' gun guys' !!! and Ricky thank you for the generous look at my pistol, which seems far more intriguing now! A very nice new years gift

cyten · 6th January 2021, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c.
Pretty simple.

I once discussed with noted Russian Arms collector, Joe Leiper (RIP) about these and he told me:

"1849 Cossack percussion pistol
Пистолет обр 1849г
Probably the most commonly seen Russian pistol from this period is the Liege manufactured 6 line Cossack Pistol. These were a purchased weapon made in Belgium and most have the Perron Tower mark of Liege on the side of the barrel (established 1853?). Some additionally have a Crown ‘V’ mark as well.

Almost never Russian marked, supposedly delivered for the Crimean war
Rifled, Caliber .60 land to land, 4 groove rifled .20 depth grooves (.640) diameter bore
Liege proof, crown ‘V’, Peron tower mark

Reported production is 2000 pistols, but too many of these are seen for this to be true."

26th December 2020, 06:08 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	....and here I add some fotos of another one with ballbutt and a fantasy gunmaker's signature on the lockplate Attached Images

27th December 2020, 01:29 PM	#3
qusko Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 62	Rick, Kubur, Thanks for your replies! Adding for others some new pictures I've found. Attached Images

27th December 2020, 05:37 PM	#4
qusko Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 62	Plus some more .. Attached Images

29th December 2020, 09:46 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c. Pretty simple. Attached Images

2nd January 2021, 02:53 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Some great photos of these ball butt pistols. And Kubur, you are probably right about it's Turkish origins. The beautiful example posted by Corado is also the first pistol of this type I've seen with a trigger guard. Looks like it was possibly added later (?) If so, it appears to have been done sometime during the period. Notice the rear of the guard being attached with screws versus the more typical nail on attachment. Jim's pistol is very interesting. Obviously of Caucasian manufacture. Simply made, but with a back-action style percussion lock. As with other guns from this Region and time, guns made with percussion locks are less commonly encountered. It's the belief of many that this was due to the small supply of percussion caps available in the Region and their high cost. The back-action percussion lock seems to have appeared sometime around the mid-1840's. Some gunsmiths felt that this action was stronger than the traditional front-action locks as used on most percussion and flintlock guns with the mainspring being positioned to the rear of the breech area versus the front. Other gunsmiths thought that it just transferred the weak area of the wood stock from the front lock bolt to the rear of the pistol grip. In fact, this is still being debated today by gun enthusiasts. Never the less, both front action and back action locks were used during the 1840-1870 period. One advantage of the back-action lock for pistols was that it allowed the use of larger caliber barrels without the need for the extra wood around the lock area. And Jim's pistol is an excellent example of this. This is also why almost every example of double barrel shotguns that became popular during this time frame have (smaller) rear-action locks. Hopefully, one day, I'll find one of these Turkish styled ball but pistols. Still looking. Meantime, my only ball butt Caucasian pistol with the interesting feature that the stock was made from a single horn. Rick Attached Images

2nd January 2021, 05:53 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Kubur, Ricky and Fernando!!! Thank you so much guys! Ricky thank you so much for the great assessment and explanation. Yes, I do have a secret garden of sorts, but mostly stored away for the 15 years 'on the road' in the 'Bookmobile'. Over time I did get a few guns, but true the swords always have captivated me in the 50 years of collecting. While intriguing, the guns are far too complicated for my non mechanical understanding, but as always, historically I like them from aesthetic point of view. I really admire the knowledge of you' gun guys' !!! and Ricky thank you for the generous look at my pistol, which seems far more intriguing now! A very nice new years gift