DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by David

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

Hullo David,

Firstly, I generally agree with what you have stated.
However:"This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them."
If this is taken to apply to me, then I believe that you have misunderstood me.
By 'faith', I mean it in the generic sense.
In decades of research, I have always tried to trace data to their original source. I have found that some authors tend to have faith in their references and accept them as gospel, not checking their veracity; thus propagating any errors which occurred up the line.
So, no, I don't dismiss them. I merely check their veracity.
That's why I have confidence in my results.
I only contribute to a conversation (banter aside) if I think that it may have value, otherwise I am quite happy to sit back, watch and learn.
As an example of what I meant with faith as a bottom line:
People had 'faith' in this particular Nobel Prize scientist, until in a subsequent project, it was found that the scientist had 'manipulated'/'extrapolated' the results.
Similarly when I mention 'agama'. People immediately think 'religion'. My definition of agama: darmasiksa; traditional/holy/teaching doctrine(s).

I apologise for the rant, but I thought some clarification was needed.

All the best for the coming year!

[A. G. Maisey]

As a fully qualified and dedicated cynic I have very few heros, but Sam Arbesman is one of them. In my shortlist, he is probably #1.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,

[Jean]

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards

Hullo Jean,
I am sorry to say that I am poverty-stricken wrt bibliography; so I pretty much have to rely on 'fieldwork'. In other words, I have not had access to the book you mention.
As I have previously mentioned in this forum somewhere, the motif on the scabbards represent tree-ferns (Cyathea, bot.). They symbolise the Soenda; 'the highlanders'. So the area covered is western Java (incl. part of Central Java).
The hilt is a stylised vegetal form of Ganesja= Gana Isja= lord of the Ganas, attendants of Siwa.

Best,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, ...

When it is not the same keris we see here!

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

When it is not the same keris we see here!

Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.

Hello Jean,

The blade from the first one in Amuks picture we can't see! So it could be very well the same one, who knows.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,

Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody?

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody?

Hullo David,

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Best,

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo David,

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Best,

Hello Amuk,
I (and probably many other Forum members) would love that you publish a book or a pictures catalog of your rare items!
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Good to know. The sheathed one, as has been noted, looks exactly like the example shown in Frey's book. So close that it does indeed seem to be the same keris.
Anyway, thanks for posting these unusual examples.