Restored Balkan Yataghan That Needs Translation

Ian · 19th December 2020, 02:12 AM

Jose,

Your silver-working skills are just getting better. I would like to ask you about a feature that you did not have to replicate but is interesting to me technically. Attached is a copy of one of your pics that shows (*) two strips of what appear to be made of plaited silver wires/thin silver strips. Have you done anything like this yourself?

Also, on the inlaid sections of the blade, I can see small "knicks" in the base metal which seem to hold the inlaid metal in place. Were these features present in the original blade, or are these part of your inlay technique? I don't recall seeing them on Ottoman pieces before.

Regards,

Ian
.

asomotif · 19th December 2020, 09:43 AM

May I back up all the wow's and oh's and other compliments.

What a job. Good to read that it took you a very long time, otherwise I would turn green with envy

Wonderfull piece btw.

I am especially intrigued by the inlay restoration.
Where did you find tips/instructions to do this ?
I have tried this with pure gold on an old spear head approx a year ago and it was a dissaster.
a few milimeters would hold, and if I progressed, the piece at the start would curl up again.

Maybe I should indeed retry it with brass.

Anyway. congrats. cool looking piece. Happy to see this in these sort of boring lock down times.

Best regards,
Willem

kwiatek · 19th December 2020, 10:54 AM

To the right of the tughra

عمل صالح

“Work of Salih”

The tughra itself is an owner’s inscription, probably

صاحب حسین

“The owner, Husayn”

There is an extra letter in there, so it might possibly also be

صاحب حسن [ابن] حسین

“The owner, Hasan [son of] Husayn”

To the left of the tughra, a Turkish phrase very common on yataghans

بجاق الده گرک دلده سبحان

“The knife should be in one’s hand, praise of God in one’s heart”

The word for knife here is bıcak

mariusgmioc · 19th December 2020, 01:58 PM

Thank you Kwiatek again!

Battara · 20th December 2020, 01:23 AM

W

W! Thank you folks! And great questions.

Kwiatek: many thanks for the translation.

Ian: Well I have tried this plaiting technique before and to do what they did here is more than plaiting but not weaving either. Also the inside is hollow, so not sure if they cut it in half, or what. Wish I had an answer for you.

Regarding the "nicks" in the inlay - that's original. With my techniques I don't do that. However, I have seen this on different Ottoman and other Middle Eastern inlaid blades before. It is the method of striking hard when engraving, especially when making curves with a big chisel. These are the hammer strikes as the large chisel digs into the blade. Then with the inlaying of softer metal, the softer metal fills into the hammer/chisel marks. I guess this method can have the effect of keeping the inlay more stable by gripping it better. This is my guess anyway, though not my method.

Asomotif: Inlay is not that easy. Looks and sounds simple but it is not. Many times one would only make the grooves and then inlay, but what you talked about will happen or they pop out. There is a whole process and many tricks that would take too long to explain here. I have been doing this for years after lots of research and study. Even some Philippine swords with original inlay had the inlay pop out. I have had to improve and modify techniques to where now I can't even get my own inlay out (accidentally inlaid a blade with some bright brass instead of silver

). So don't be down on yourself - sounds easy but I garantee you it is NOT! BTW - don't use brass if the original is in gold - brass is stiffer and much much harder to work than gold (as well as being harder than sterling). Only thing harder than brass inlay is steel inlay!

NOTE: some little tiny areas of inlay I did not attempt in fear that I would dislodge the rest of the original inlay - something that can happen easily (and does if not careful - I know from experience

)

Oh BTW - I was wrong. It took me not 8 months but 5 months to restore it (double checked the auction date).

gp · 30th December 2020, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I had to teach myself how to do Turkish silver filigree (which is not on Youtube nor is anyone teaching it

). It was a lot of trial and error (more error) and I had to create my own techniques.

Respect and a deep bow to you for your filigree work, especially as it was autodidact /self-taught

Filigree, an art found mostly by seafaring nations; the Dutch coast (Sealand), Portugal and moreover mostly the Mediterranean.
Especially in their traditional ( female and wedding) jewelry of which I am a SME ever since I met the gold and silversmiths when I lived in Morocco 1980/81 and later in the former Yugoslavia 1985/87.
Hence also their decoration of arms ( cold arms and later guns; pistols and rifles) show these magnificent pieces of art..
An art which sadly has been replaced more and more by machine made items based upon costs reductions and taste ( fashion changes) during the last decades.

Nevertheless some good news for you: there still are some "majstor" (Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian for master ; originating from the ancient system of apprentice journeyman master) in Bosnia and Dalmatia (Southern Croatia) who still master the art and are able to assist and advise you.

In Sarajevo: I can advice you to look for them in the old town center called Baščaršija and in and around the Ferhadija street. Be sure to check you are dealing with a Bosnian master and not some trader....

In Dubrovnik you also can find them in the old town between the city walls (used to film GOT) in the Stradun ( mainstreet)

If they hear what you did with this yataghan and show them your pics, I am sure you will get all the support & info you need, even more for future endeavours and projects ....Good luck !
or send me a PM and I am more than happy to oblige

Battara · 30th December 2020, 11:05 PM

How wonderful GP! I'm so glad it is not a dead art. I have always admired their work, which I find more challenging than modern Russian, etc. filigree, though their filigree is very good.

Thank you for your offer of help and may just take you up on that.

And again thank you - all of my metal work and restoration work is self-taught. Not easy but I never had the money nor time to apprentice or go to school for training.

BTW - When I was in Fez Morocco (2007), I was able to watch the brass, copper, and silver smiths at their crafts while spending time in the Medina. I said to myself that one day when I grow up I would learn how to do similar work.

Still so much to learn.

19th December 2020, 02:12 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,362	Jose, Your silver-working skills are just getting better. I would like to ask you about a feature that you did not have to replicate but is interesting to me technically. Attached is a copy of one of your pics that shows (*) two strips of what appear to be made of plaited silver wires/thin silver strips. Have you done anything like this yourself? Also, on the inlaid sections of the blade, I can see small "knicks" in the base metal which seem to hold the inlaid metal in place. Were these features present in the original blade, or are these part of your inlay technique? I don't recall seeing them on Ottoman pieces before. Regards, Ian . Attached Images

20th December 2020, 01:23 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	W W! Thank you folks! And great questions. Kwiatek: many thanks for the translation. Ian: Well I have tried this plaiting technique before and to do what they did here is more than plaiting but not weaving either. Also the inside is hollow, so not sure if they cut it in half, or what. Wish I had an answer for you. Regarding the "nicks" in the inlay - that's original. With my techniques I don't do that. However, I have seen this on different Ottoman and other Middle Eastern inlaid blades before. It is the method of striking hard when engraving, especially when making curves with a big chisel. These are the hammer strikes as the large chisel digs into the blade. Then with the inlaying of softer metal, the softer metal fills into the hammer/chisel marks. I guess this method can have the effect of keeping the inlay more stable by gripping it better. This is my guess anyway, though not my method. Asomotif: Inlay is not that easy. Looks and sounds simple but it is not. Many times one would only make the grooves and then inlay, but what you talked about will happen or they pop out. There is a whole process and many tricks that would take too long to explain here. I have been doing this for years after lots of research and study. Even some Philippine swords with original inlay had the inlay pop out. I have had to improve and modify techniques to where now I can't even get my own inlay out (accidentally inlaid a blade with some bright brass instead of silver ). So don't be down on yourself - sounds easy but I garantee you it is NOT! BTW - don't use brass if the original is in gold - brass is stiffer and much much harder to work than gold (as well as being harder than sterling). Only thing harder than brass inlay is steel inlay! NOTE: some little tiny areas of inlay I did not attempt in fear that I would dislodge the rest of the original inlay - something that can happen easily (and does if not careful - I know from experience ) Oh BTW - I was wrong. It took me not 8 months but 5 months to restore it (double checked the auction date). Last edited by Battara; 20th December 2020 at 07:31 AM.

19th December 2020, 09:43 AM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	May I back up all the wow's and oh's and other compliments. What a job. Good to read that it took you a very long time, otherwise I would turn green with envy Wonderfull piece btw. I am especially intrigued by the inlay restoration. Where did you find tips/instructions to do this ? I have tried this with pure gold on an old spear head approx a year ago and it was a dissaster. a few milimeters would hold, and if I progressed, the piece at the start would curl up again. Maybe I should indeed retry it with brass. Anyway. congrats. cool looking piece. Happy to see this in these sort of boring lock down times. Best regards, Willem

19th December 2020, 10:54 AM	#3
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 153	To the right of the tughra عمل صالح “Work of Salih” The tughra itself is an owner’s inscription, probably صاحب حسین “The owner, Husayn” There is an extra letter in there, so it might possibly also be صاحب حسن [ابن] حسین “The owner, Hasan [son of] Husayn” To the left of the tughra, a Turkish phrase very common on yataghans بجاق الده گرک دلده سبحان “The knife should be in one’s hand, praise of God in one’s heart” The word for knife here is bıcak

19th December 2020, 01:58 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Thank you Kwiatek again!

30th December 2020, 11:05 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	How wonderful GP! I'm so glad it is not a dead art. I have always admired their work, which I find more challenging than modern Russian, etc. filigree, though their filigree is very good. Thank you for your offer of help and may just take you up on that. And again thank you - all of my metal work and restoration work is self-taught. Not easy but I never had the money nor time to apprentice or go to school for training. BTW - When I was in Fez Morocco (2007), I was able to watch the brass, copper, and silver smiths at their crafts while spending time in the Medina. I said to myself that one day when I grow up I would learn how to do similar work. Still so much to learn.