Is this saif from Yemen or Hyderabad India for the Yemeni market?

[Richard G]

Sorry, my statement was open to misinterpretation. These swords were most certainly found in the Hadhramaut.
I just wondered how swords of this quality got there -
Were they made there?, and of course, by whom?
Were they exported there from Hyderabad as 'export' goods?
Were they brought back from Hyderabad as possessions or gifts by returning Hadhramis?
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Sorry, my statement was open to misinterpretation. These swords were most certainly found in the Hadhramaut.
I just wondered how swords of this quality got there -
Were they made there?, and of course, by whom?
Were they exported there from Hyderabad as 'export' goods?
Were they brought back from Hyderabad as possessions or gifts by returning Hadhramis?
Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,
Trying to delineate what region a sword is actually from is somewhat futile in cases where there is so much intertribal, colonial and political flux. Hadhramaut was actually part of South Yemen during the Aden Protectorate in the 19th c.
I found some excerpts from "Arms and Armor of Arabia" Robert Elgood, 1994:
Regarding the Aden Protectorate:
"...the peoples of this area frequently served as mercenaries in Hyderabad and the swords are certainly made there and locally. The better Hyderabadi ones -like the daggers made for the Hadhramaut-show red foil inder the pierced silver scabbards. The chased silver flowers and wheel pattern on the sword scabbards are Indian in style". p.15

Also, p.83,
"..west from Oman is the Hadhramaut, which like Muscat, had close trading links with India. The Yafa'i were a tribe with long history of mercenary service to the Indian rulers though other tribes were also included".

p.84-
"...only the Mukalla sultans wore jewelled daggers- FROM Hyderabad.

p.86,
"...the very best janabi and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made, and simply referred to as 'Haiderabad'."

This was of course the Hyderabad in the Deccan, not the place by same name now in Pakistan.

Naturally, there were silver workers in Hadhramaut, and clearly the blades for weapons were imported from India, however as noted in this text, there seems a strong suggestion that the higher quality swords were mounted in Hyderabad.

The diffusion of these swords would of course be most likely throughout the Yemen, though much of the attribution and connection to Hyderabad seems to be related to the mercenary activity and traffic with Hadhramaut.

The attached page from Elgood shows the 'Hadhramauti' examples. The note on red foil under piercework and the silver designs gave me the idea that my example was from Hyderabad for Hadhramaut because of those elements, but in mine the silver is backed by red velveteen rather than red foil.

[Kubur]

Well it might be more complicated than India (Hyderabad) or Yemen (Hadramawt) as it is described in the previous posts.

Indian communauties were living in Yemen, including craftmen in Mocha, Taizz, Zabid...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well it might be more complicated than India (Hyderabad) or Yemen (Hadramawt) as it is described in the previous posts.

Indian communauties were living in Yemen, including craftmen in Mocha, Taizz, Zabid...

Well noted, it is well known there were many established communities from India living in various places in Arabia, just as they were throughout many other places. I think the key for the Hadhramaut attribution as described by Elgood and others derives from the mercenary and trade activities between there and Hyderabad, as well as the propensity of these forms known in these areas.
I wonder if these other areas produced these types of mountings for swords and daggers in the other areas noted outside the Yemeni sphere. As artisans moved into various regions their regional styles of course likely were continued in degree.

[Kubur]

Please Jim, look at the pommel of this zaibidi jambiya extremely similar to the quillon of the sword discussed.

For Ariel, of course I agree, the Yemeni karabela is from Ottoman origin, here I post my Yemeni karabela and my Persian Zand karabela for comparison.

[Battara]

Thank you folks. Some very good points. Not my area of expertise, so I bow in your presence.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Kubur for showing these examples. With the swords, it is interesting to see the recess to hold the langet in the same manner as the Hadhramati examples we are discussing. The Persian influence was of course prevalent in Arabia, so not surprising to see this feature in common on a Zand period weapon. Great example!

Good comparison on those diamond like fixtures on the hilt of the Zabidi janbiyya. I'm really not too familiar with Arabian daggers, but believe 'Zabidi' refers to SE Yemen whose area included the Hadhramaut.
Mocha was the Red Sea port for San'aa (in proximity of Taizz) where there was considerable sword production as well, and the forms known there seem to have had their own peculiarities. These were western locations in the Aden Protectorate or South Yemen.

I think it is safe to say many hilt elements were favored in common, but the larger structure or configuration of hilts held to somewhat local preferences.