Is this saif from Yemen or Hyderabad India for the Yemeni market?

[ariel]

Marius,

Japanese blades were forged from two kinds of steel and were true pattern-welded.
First, by a tatara process they got a bloom, crushed it and the smith separated high-carbon from low- carbon fragments and forged them separately into 2 different bars, one of “ hagane “ steel with ~1.4% carbon, another from “ zuku” steel with 3-4% carbon. After that, they forged them together, bent them, twisted them etc, and got a pattern welded blade.
The same process was used by Northern Europeans to produce “ Viking swords”. Even La Tene swords upon polishing and etching reveal pattern-welded structure.

All that I have learned from Manfred Sachse’s book.

[ariel]

Jim,

The origin of the trilobate “ Karabela” pommel was attributed to Shah Abbas (1571-1629) who patterned it from the configuration of windows of the mosque in a holy city of Karbala. That was proposed by Khorasani in his book and regretfully Elgood repeated it.
However, there are Turkish miniatures showing same configuration well before Abbas’ times. I had them, but they were lost with the entire computer:-(((

Luckily , the same pommel is seen in the pictures by Durer( 1471- 1529) and by Pietro Befulco( 1471-1503), both well before Shah Abbas was even born. Whether the European development of that pommel was an independent one, or a copy of the Turkish one is uncertain, but the existence of Turkish images and the close contacts of Europeans with Turkish weapons strongly suggests the latter.

Also, karabela pommel was widespread on the Ottoman territories( Turkey proper, Balkans, Hungary, Arabia) or in Poland that fought with the Ottomans or their satellites. but was only seen on some late ( 18-19 century) solitary examples of the “Persian” areal ( Iran proper, India).

Thus, the Turkish claim that Karabela got its name from the town of Karabel, and has nothing to do with Karbala or some fanciful phonetic inventions ( Italian Cara Bella, dear beauty or such) seems to be true.

[Richard G]

I have seen a few saifs of this type and a common feature seems to be that the blades are highly polished, but not well polished. Scratches are usually present.
The answer may be that this saif was made in Hyderabad for the Yemeni market in Hyderabad. I have no idea whether or not such swords were exported to Yemen or were brought back to the Yemen by returning Hadhramis.
Best wishes
Richard

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I have no idea whether or not such swords were exported to Yemen or were brought back to the Yemen by returning Hadhramis.

They were most certainly used in Yemen. There is a picture in Hales of the Sultan of Lahej with such a sword.

[Richard G]

Sorry, my statement was open to misinterpretation. These swords were most certainly found in the Hadhramaut.
I just wondered how swords of this quality got there -
Were they made there?, and of course, by whom?
Were they exported there from Hyderabad as 'export' goods?
Were they brought back from Hyderabad as possessions or gifts by returning Hadhramis?
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Sorry, my statement was open to misinterpretation. These swords were most certainly found in the Hadhramaut.
I just wondered how swords of this quality got there -
Were they made there?, and of course, by whom?
Were they exported there from Hyderabad as 'export' goods?
Were they brought back from Hyderabad as possessions or gifts by returning Hadhramis?
Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,
Trying to delineate what region a sword is actually from is somewhat futile in cases where there is so much intertribal, colonial and political flux. Hadhramaut was actually part of South Yemen during the Aden Protectorate in the 19th c.
I found some excerpts from "Arms and Armor of Arabia" Robert Elgood, 1994:
Regarding the Aden Protectorate:
"...the peoples of this area frequently served as mercenaries in Hyderabad and the swords are certainly made there and locally. The better Hyderabadi ones -like the daggers made for the Hadhramaut-show red foil inder the pierced silver scabbards. The chased silver flowers and wheel pattern on the sword scabbards are Indian in style". p.15

Also, p.83,
"..west from Oman is the Hadhramaut, which like Muscat, had close trading links with India. The Yafa'i were a tribe with long history of mercenary service to the Indian rulers though other tribes were also included".

p.84-
"...only the Mukalla sultans wore jewelled daggers- FROM Hyderabad.

p.86,
"...the very best janabi and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made, and simply referred to as 'Haiderabad'."

This was of course the Hyderabad in the Deccan, not the place by same name now in Pakistan.

Naturally, there were silver workers in Hadhramaut, and clearly the blades for weapons were imported from India, however as noted in this text, there seems a strong suggestion that the higher quality swords were mounted in Hyderabad.

The diffusion of these swords would of course be most likely throughout the Yemen, though much of the attribution and connection to Hyderabad seems to be related to the mercenary activity and traffic with Hadhramaut.

The attached page from Elgood shows the 'Hadhramauti' examples. The note on red foil under piercework and the silver designs gave me the idea that my example was from Hyderabad for Hadhramaut because of those elements, but in mine the silver is backed by red velveteen rather than red foil.

[Kubur]

Well it might be more complicated than India (Hyderabad) or Yemen (Hadramawt) as it is described in the previous posts.

Indian communauties were living in Yemen, including craftmen in Mocha, Taizz, Zabid...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,

The origin of the trilobate “ Karabela” pommel was attributed to Shah Abbas (1571-1629) who patterned it from the configuration of windows of the mosque in a holy city of Karbala. That was proposed by Khorasani in his book and regretfully Elgood repeated it.
However, there are Turkish miniatures showing same configuration well before Abbas’ times. I had them, but they were lost with the entire computer:-(((

Luckily , the same pommel is seen in the pictures by Durer( 1471- 1529) and by Pietro Befulco( 1471-1503), both well before Shah Abbas was even born. Whether the European development of that pommel was an independent one, or a copy of the Turkish one is uncertain, but the existence of Turkish images and the close contacts of Europeans with Turkish weapons strongly suggests the latter.

Also, karabela pommel was widespread on the Ottoman territories( Turkey proper, Balkans, Hungary, Arabia) or in Poland that fought with the Ottomans or their satellites. but was only seen on some late ( 18-19 century) solitary examples of the “Persian” areal ( Iran proper, India).

Thus, the Turkish claim that Karabela got its name from the town of Karabel, and has nothing to do with Karbala or some fanciful phonetic inventions ( Italian Cara Bella, dear beauty or such) seems to be true.

Ariel, thank you for adding these details on the term 'karabela' and the possible origins of this distinctive hilt form. It was interesting looking back at our discussions on these which go back to 2014 and some time before. Your knowledge on this topic is, as then, remarkable, and I always am grateful for your insights.

I had not heard Manoucher's claim concerning the inspiration for these coming from mosque windows etc, but honestly do not find that notion presented by him surprising. I am also surprised that (as you have noted) Robert Elgood would carry that forward without qualification, as his study on the karabela hilt form ("Arms and Armour of Arabia" 1994) well noted that the origins of the hilt as well as etymology of the term were unclear, and the character of the suggestions cited were without sufficient evidence.

As you have noted, the works by Durer and Befulco long predated Shah Abbas so clearly the hilt form existed long before the 17th century and likely entered European use from Persian or Ottoman context .

With the term, Jan Ostrowski noted in "Polish Sabers: Their Origins and Evolution" (1979), "...the etymology of this strange name remains unexplained", and " perhaps the village of Karabel in Turkey comes closer to probability though there is no evidence other than phonetic similarity".

[Battara]

After etching it to see the laminations I re-polished it but not finely. I will put the final polish soon.