Is this saif from Yemen or Hyderabad India for the Yemeni market?

[Jim McDougall]

As far as I have understood from Robert Elgood, this type of sa'if was well known in Hadhramaut, which is technically the eastern part of Yemen to the Oman border. Apparently these regions often furnished mercenary forces to Hyderabad, thus the significant connections which may account for the popularity of this silver work from artisans there.

These sa'if had the canted triilobate pommel as seen on this wonderful example posted, as well as the 'karabela' type, which I have attached.

While these seem typically regarded as latter 18th century, their use seems to extend into early 20th c. and whether the hilt forms were contemporary to each other is unclear, perhaps simply matter of personal preference.

In any case, a form not often seen available to collectors, so outstanding score Jose !!! Merry Christmas!!!!!

[Battara]

Thank you folks!

Yes this was on my wish list and I finally got it for an affordable price (and all in silver ).

TVV - I did etch it and the patterns came out even more starkly reminiscent of some types of Indian pattern welding. (see picture).

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

This is a very good example and it is in excellent condition. Congratulations for this quality piece!

From the photos you posted I am not sure the blade is pattern welded. Most blades of this kind of saifs are not pattern welded.
The apparent pattern may be because of lamination, heat treatment but in this case more likely because of former contact with oxidizing agents. However, it is difficult to say from the photos.

The blade is already well cleaned but with rather coarse scratches. So I think the blade may benefit from some finer polishing 1000-2000 grit. I wouldn't attempt to completely remove the scratches but only to give it a finer and more uniform appearance. By doing this, the structure of the blade may become more apparent.

PS: I consider pattern welded, a laminated structure composed of two different steels that etch in different tones so as to display a specific pattern.
So if a blade is made of multiple layers of the same steel (like the Japanese blades for example, or like many Indian blades) it is laminated, but not pattern welded.

[ariel]

Marius,

Japanese blades were forged from two kinds of steel and were true pattern-welded.
First, by a tatara process they got a bloom, crushed it and the smith separated high-carbon from low- carbon fragments and forged them separately into 2 different bars, one of “ hagane “ steel with ~1.4% carbon, another from “ zuku” steel with 3-4% carbon. After that, they forged them together, bent them, twisted them etc, and got a pattern welded blade.
The same process was used by Northern Europeans to produce “ Viking swords”. Even La Tene swords upon polishing and etching reveal pattern-welded structure.

All that I have learned from Manfred Sachse’s book.

[ariel]

Jim,

The origin of the trilobate “ Karabela” pommel was attributed to Shah Abbas (1571-1629) who patterned it from the configuration of windows of the mosque in a holy city of Karbala. That was proposed by Khorasani in his book and regretfully Elgood repeated it.
However, there are Turkish miniatures showing same configuration well before Abbas’ times. I had them, but they were lost with the entire computer:-(((

Luckily , the same pommel is seen in the pictures by Durer( 1471- 1529) and by Pietro Befulco( 1471-1503), both well before Shah Abbas was even born. Whether the European development of that pommel was an independent one, or a copy of the Turkish one is uncertain, but the existence of Turkish images and the close contacts of Europeans with Turkish weapons strongly suggests the latter.

Also, karabela pommel was widespread on the Ottoman territories( Turkey proper, Balkans, Hungary, Arabia) or in Poland that fought with the Ottomans or their satellites. but was only seen on some late ( 18-19 century) solitary examples of the “Persian” areal ( Iran proper, India).

Thus, the Turkish claim that Karabela got its name from the town of Karabel, and has nothing to do with Karbala or some fanciful phonetic inventions ( Italian Cara Bella, dear beauty or such) seems to be true.

[Richard G]

I have seen a few saifs of this type and a common feature seems to be that the blades are highly polished, but not well polished. Scratches are usually present.
The answer may be that this saif was made in Hyderabad for the Yemeni market in Hyderabad. I have no idea whether or not such swords were exported to Yemen or were brought back to the Yemen by returning Hadhramis.
Best wishes
Richard

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I have no idea whether or not such swords were exported to Yemen or were brought back to the Yemen by returning Hadhramis.

They were most certainly used in Yemen. There is a picture in Hales of the Sultan of Lahej with such a sword.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,

The origin of the trilobate “ Karabela” pommel was attributed to Shah Abbas (1571-1629) who patterned it from the configuration of windows of the mosque in a holy city of Karbala. That was proposed by Khorasani in his book and regretfully Elgood repeated it.
However, there are Turkish miniatures showing same configuration well before Abbas’ times. I had them, but they were lost with the entire computer:-(((

Luckily , the same pommel is seen in the pictures by Durer( 1471- 1529) and by Pietro Befulco( 1471-1503), both well before Shah Abbas was even born. Whether the European development of that pommel was an independent one, or a copy of the Turkish one is uncertain, but the existence of Turkish images and the close contacts of Europeans with Turkish weapons strongly suggests the latter.

Also, karabela pommel was widespread on the Ottoman territories( Turkey proper, Balkans, Hungary, Arabia) or in Poland that fought with the Ottomans or their satellites. but was only seen on some late ( 18-19 century) solitary examples of the “Persian” areal ( Iran proper, India).

Thus, the Turkish claim that Karabela got its name from the town of Karabel, and has nothing to do with Karbala or some fanciful phonetic inventions ( Italian Cara Bella, dear beauty or such) seems to be true.

Ariel, thank you for adding these details on the term 'karabela' and the possible origins of this distinctive hilt form. It was interesting looking back at our discussions on these which go back to 2014 and some time before. Your knowledge on this topic is, as then, remarkable, and I always am grateful for your insights.

I had not heard Manoucher's claim concerning the inspiration for these coming from mosque windows etc, but honestly do not find that notion presented by him surprising. I am also surprised that (as you have noted) Robert Elgood would carry that forward without qualification, as his study on the karabela hilt form ("Arms and Armour of Arabia" 1994) well noted that the origins of the hilt as well as etymology of the term were unclear, and the character of the suggestions cited were without sufficient evidence.

As you have noted, the works by Durer and Befulco long predated Shah Abbas so clearly the hilt form existed long before the 17th century and likely entered European use from Persian or Ottoman context .

With the term, Jan Ostrowski noted in "Polish Sabers: Their Origins and Evolution" (1979), "...the etymology of this strange name remains unexplained", and " perhaps the village of Karabel in Turkey comes closer to probability though there is no evidence other than phonetic similarity".

[Battara]

After etching it to see the laminations I re-polished it but not finely. I will put the final polish soon.