Is this saif from Yemen or Hyderabad India for the Yemeni market?

TVV · 15th December 2020, 07:12 AM

First of all, congratulations on this extremely nice saif. Your observations on the flower motives are accurate and supported by both Elgood and Hales. Both authors state that while these swords were used in Southern Yemen, many of them and especially the nicer ones were made in Hyderabad. Have you tried bringing out the pattern on the blade?

ariel · 15th December 2020, 03:27 PM

Personally, I thing it is not from Yemen or Hyderabad: it was made by Santa’s elves.
Jose, something wonderful fell down your chimney : obviously you were a VERY good boy!

Merry X-Mas to you!

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2020, 06:11 PM

As far as I have understood from Robert Elgood, this type of sa'if was well known in Hadhramaut, which is technically the eastern part of Yemen to the Oman border. Apparently these regions often furnished mercenary forces to Hyderabad, thus the significant connections which may account for the popularity of this silver work from artisans there.

These sa'if had the canted triilobate pommel as seen on this wonderful example posted, as well as the 'karabela' type, which I have attached.

While these seem typically regarded as latter 18th century, their use seems to extend into early 20th c. and whether the hilt forms were contemporary to each other is unclear, perhaps simply matter of personal preference.

In any case, a form not often seen available to collectors, so outstanding score Jose !!! Merry Christmas!!!!!

Battara · 16th December 2020, 02:39 AM

Thank you folks!

Yes this was on my wish list and I finally got it for an affordable price (and all in silver

).

TVV - I did etch it and the patterns came out even more starkly reminiscent of some types of Indian pattern welding. (see picture).

mariusgmioc · 16th December 2020, 06:39 AM

Hello,

This is a very good example and it is in excellent condition. Congratulations for this quality piece!

From the photos you posted I am not sure the blade is pattern welded. Most blades of this kind of saifs are not pattern welded.
The apparent pattern may be because of lamination, heat treatment but in this case more likely because of former contact with oxidizing agents. However, it is difficult to say from the photos.

The blade is already well cleaned but with rather coarse scratches. So I think the blade may benefit from some finer polishing 1000-2000 grit. I wouldn't attempt to completely remove the scratches but only to give it a finer and more uniform appearance. By doing this, the structure of the blade may become more apparent.

PS: I consider pattern welded, a laminated structure composed of two different steels that etch in different tones so as to display a specific pattern.
So if a blade is made of multiple layers of the same steel (like the Japanese blades for example, or like many Indian blades) it is laminated, but not pattern welded.

ariel · 16th December 2020, 12:42 PM

Marius,

Japanese blades were forged from two kinds of steel and were true pattern-welded.
First, by a tatara process they got a bloom, crushed it and the smith separated high-carbon from low- carbon fragments and forged them separately into 2 different bars, one of “ hagane “ steel with ~1.4% carbon, another from “ zuku” steel with 3-4% carbon. After that, they forged them together, bent them, twisted them etc, and got a pattern welded blade.
The same process was used by Northern Europeans to produce “ Viking swords”. Even La Tene swords upon polishing and etching reveal pattern-welded structure.

All that I have learned from Manfred Sachse’s book.

ariel · 16th December 2020, 01:22 PM

Jim,

The origin of the trilobate “ Karabela” pommel was attributed to Shah Abbas (1571-1629) who patterned it from the configuration of windows of the mosque in a holy city of Karbala. That was proposed by Khorasani in his book and regretfully Elgood repeated it.
However, there are Turkish miniatures showing same configuration well before Abbas’ times. I had them, but they were lost with the entire computer:-(((

Luckily , the same pommel is seen in the pictures by Durer( 1471- 1529) and by Pietro Befulco( 1471-1503), both well before Shah Abbas was even born. Whether the European development of that pommel was an independent one, or a copy of the Turkish one is uncertain, but the existence of Turkish images and the close contacts of Europeans with Turkish weapons strongly suggests the latter.

Also, karabela pommel was widespread on the Ottoman territories( Turkey proper, Balkans, Hungary, Arabia) or in Poland that fought with the Ottomans or their satellites. but was only seen on some late ( 18-19 century) solitary examples of the “Persian” areal ( Iran proper, India).

Thus, the Turkish claim that Karabela got its name from the town of Karabel, and has nothing to do with Karbala or some fanciful phonetic inventions ( Italian Cara Bella, dear beauty or such) seems to be true.

15th December 2020, 06:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	As far as I have understood from Robert Elgood, this type of sa'if was well known in Hadhramaut, which is technically the eastern part of Yemen to the Oman border. Apparently these regions often furnished mercenary forces to Hyderabad, thus the significant connections which may account for the popularity of this silver work from artisans there. These sa'if had the canted triilobate pommel as seen on this wonderful example posted, as well as the 'karabela' type, which I have attached. While these seem typically regarded as latter 18th century, their use seems to extend into early 20th c. and whether the hilt forms were contemporary to each other is unclear, perhaps simply matter of personal preference. In any case, a form not often seen available to collectors, so outstanding score Jose !!! Merry Christmas!!!!! Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th December 2020 at 06:39 PM.

16th December 2020, 02:39 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Thank you folks! Yes this was on my wish list and I finally got it for an affordable price (and all in silver ). TVV - I did etch it and the patterns came out even more starkly reminiscent of some types of Indian pattern welding. (see picture). Attached Images

16th December 2020, 06:39 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hello, This is a very good example and it is in excellent condition. Congratulations for this quality piece! From the photos you posted I am not sure the blade is pattern welded. Most blades of this kind of saifs are not pattern welded. The apparent pattern may be because of lamination, heat treatment but in this case more likely because of former contact with oxidizing agents. However, it is difficult to say from the photos. The blade is already well cleaned but with rather coarse scratches. So I think the blade may benefit from some finer polishing 1000-2000 grit. I wouldn't attempt to completely remove the scratches but only to give it a finer and more uniform appearance. By doing this, the structure of the blade may become more apparent. PS: I consider pattern welded, a laminated structure composed of two different steels that etch in different tones so as to display a specific pattern. So if a blade is made of multiple layers of the same steel (like the Japanese blades for example, or like many Indian blades) it is laminated, but not pattern welded. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th December 2020 at 08:40 AM.

15th December 2020, 07:12 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	First of all, congratulations on this extremely nice saif. Your observations on the flower motives are accurate and supported by both Elgood and Hales. Both authors state that while these swords were used in Southern Yemen, many of them and especially the nicer ones were made in Hyderabad. Have you tried bringing out the pattern on the blade?

15th December 2020, 03:27 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Personally, I thing it is not from Yemen or Hyderabad: it was made by Santa’s elves. Jose, something wonderful fell down your chimney : obviously you were a VERY good boy! Merry X-Mas to you!

16th December 2020, 12:42 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, Japanese blades were forged from two kinds of steel and were true pattern-welded. First, by a tatara process they got a bloom, crushed it and the smith separated high-carbon from low- carbon fragments and forged them separately into 2 different bars, one of “ hagane “ steel with ~1.4% carbon, another from “ zuku” steel with 3-4% carbon. After that, they forged them together, bent them, twisted them etc, and got a pattern welded blade. The same process was used by Northern Europeans to produce “ Viking swords”. Even La Tene swords upon polishing and etching reveal pattern-welded structure. All that I have learned from Manfred Sachse’s book.

16th December 2020, 01:22 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, The origin of the trilobate “ Karabela” pommel was attributed to Shah Abbas (1571-1629) who patterned it from the configuration of windows of the mosque in a holy city of Karbala. That was proposed by Khorasani in his book and regretfully Elgood repeated it. However, there are Turkish miniatures showing same configuration well before Abbas’ times. I had them, but they were lost with the entire computer:-((( Luckily , the same pommel is seen in the pictures by Durer( 1471- 1529) and by Pietro Befulco( 1471-1503), both well before Shah Abbas was even born. Whether the European development of that pommel was an independent one, or a copy of the Turkish one is uncertain, but the existence of Turkish images and the close contacts of Europeans with Turkish weapons strongly suggests the latter. Also, karabela pommel was widespread on the Ottoman territories( Turkey proper, Balkans, Hungary, Arabia) or in Poland that fought with the Ottomans or their satellites. but was only seen on some late ( 18-19 century) solitary examples of the “Persian” areal ( Iran proper, India). Thus, the Turkish claim that Karabela got its name from the town of Karabel, and has nothing to do with Karbala or some fanciful phonetic inventions ( Italian Cara Bella, dear beauty or such) seems to be true.