Indian sword with strange markings for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Why umbrella?! And even less likely an Indian umbrella.

To me, it looks more like some sort of palm tree.

One can clearly distinguish the characteristic trunk and the soil with tall grass.

Interesting suggestion, and well illustrates the 'Rohrshach' circumstance when markings become highly stylized or poorly executed, or both.
As Ariel has noted, this particular 'umbrella' is a bit 'overembellished' as would be the case when an artisan is striving for ultra imbuement.

There are cases of Indian blades where the 'sickle marks' as often seen on blades in Northwest India, are used in linear fashion lining the entire blade along the back (not spine). There are many cases of other markings being imitated in various interpretations.

The case of the 'Passau wolf' is a good one concerning 'stylization' and these representations of the 'wolf' are seen in dramation variation, some virtually just chops in a pattern which barely resembles a wolf or any particular quadruped. Oakeshott once noted that these were seen as a unicorn in some cases, and it seems other interpretations are known as well.

With the numbers on the blade, it does seem these are 'stippled' which would concur with the method of numbering or administrative inventory used by the Bikaner armory iin Rajasthan. These were however in Devanagari or other dialectic Indian script. Whatever the case, this is hardly an aesthetic addition, and further suggests this was probably a combat oriented weapon rather than court intended accoutrement.

[Jim McDougall]

Drabant, we crossed posts, and just read your excellent observations, very well explained.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interesting suggestion, and well illustrates the 'Rohrshach' circumstance when markings become highly stylized or poorly executed, or both.
As Ariel has noted, this particular 'umbrella' is a bit 'overembellished' as would be the case when an artisan is striving for ultra imbuement.

There are cases of Indian blades where the 'sickle marks' as often seen on blades in Northwest India, are used in linear fashion lining the entire blade along the back (not spine). There are many cases of other markings being imitated in various interpretations.

The case of the 'Passau wolf' is a good one concerning 'stylization' and these representations of the 'wolf' are seen in dramation variation, some virtually just chops in a pattern which barely resembles a wolf or any particular quadruped. Oakeshott once noted that these were seen as a unicorn in some cases, and it seems other interpretations are known as well.

With the numbers on the blade, it does seem these are 'stippled' which would concur with the method of numbering or administrative inventory used by the Bikaner armory iin Rajasthan. These were however in Devanagari or other dialectic Indian script. Whatever the case, this is hardly an aesthetic addition, and further suggests this was probably a combat oriented weapon rather than court intended accoutrement.

Well put Jim. A similar example to the wolf and umbrella is the Assad Allah Lion. On many Qajar swords you know it's a lion mark because its always a lion mark. For someone not knowing what they are looking for it may as well be a dog, a pig or hippopotamus.

I was doing some more reading in the umbrella thread on the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=umbrella

There is some discussion about the tree of life in connection to the umbrella in south Borneo. So there might be a tree in there after all.

The thread also has the photo below. I am not claiming it to be similar to the mark on my sword. It does however have a half circle+ at the bottom. So there are other umbrellas out there with unorthodox bottoms.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Well put Jim. A similar example to the wolf and umbrella is the Assad Allah Lion. On many Qajar swords you know it's a lion mark because its always a lion mark. For someone not knowing what they are looking for it may as well be a dog, a pig or hippopotamus.

I was doing some more reading in the umbrella thread on the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=umbrella

There is some discussion about the tree of life in connection to the umbrella in south Borneo. So there might be a tree in there after all.

The thread also has the photo below. I am not claiming it to be similar to the mark on my sword. It does however have a half circle+ at the bottom. So there are other umbrellas out there with unorthodox bottoms.

Excellent example! This is clearly a Mughal application and reminds me of similar cases with Tipu Sultan. What this is would be the Mughal 'umbrella' incorporated into the familiar cross and orb symbol often used on German blades, virtually a hybrid symbol denoting quality and status.

In some cases Tipu amalgamated his own personal symbol with that of the East India Co. in that same sense, ironically even though they were enemies. In some way it seems possibly that this was a kind of metaphor as I think it was superimposed, as if showing him overcoming the EIC, but of course this may be reading into it too much.

The umbrella symbol as a regal indicator pretty much goes back into ancient times, and was well known in Asia. With the strong Persian influence in Mughal courts, and of course such influences which came to them from the east, it stands to reason the notion filtered into Mughal symbolism.

The Assad Adullah lion was used on Persian trade blades, and was so used to afford interpretation or awareness to basically illiterate or uninitiated buyers, as a pictogram rather than wording as usually in cartouche. While typically in the Islamic context, the pictograph would be readily interpreted as the "Lion of God" , in other cultures using the blades, obviously other versions of perception might occur.

The hippopatamus note I think comes from a reference (Reed, 1987) referring to a Sudanese chieftain who was looking at a Passau Wolf on a blade for a kaskara and claimed that was what it was.

Again, an outstanding tegha example! and all the more so with these great markings. These are not commonly seen as it is, and this with Rajput character (the Hindu basket hilt) and Mughal type markings makes it remarkable in my opinion.

[ariel]

Drabant,
I was wrong about the issue of " cutting through cloth armour". In the excellent review of Deccani swords by Robert Elgood ( " Sultans of the South") there is a photo of a tegha with identical handle , only very rich and gilt all over.
It has a wide D-guard, curved baluster and the " wings" at the knuckleguard. It is attributed by R.E. to Deccan, 17th century and mentions cloth armour.
I shall look around and send you the paper.
The best way is if you give me your e-mail address.
You can use PM.

[mariusgmioc]

OK, thank you Drabant!

Now I see the "umbrella."

Was looking upside down because it seemed to make more sense.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by ariel

Drabant,
I was wrong about the issue of " cutting through cloth armour". In the excellent review of Deccani swords by Robert Elgood ( " Sultans of the South") there is a photo of a tegha with identical handle , only very rich and gilt all over.
It has a wide D-guard, curved baluster and the " wings" at the knuckleguard. It is attributed by R.E. to Deccan, 17th century and mentions cloth armour.
I shall look around and send you the paper.
The best way is if you give me your e-mail address.
You can use PM.

Found it!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=197808#p

That tegha is spectacular I would not mind that on my wall

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Found it!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=197808#p

That tegha is spectacular I would not mind that on my wall

Wait in line, old son! :-)

[Victrix]

Blades show an interesting similarity with 16thC Styrian dusägge sabres. The Indian ones seem slightly more curved. Also some of the fullers are similar to dussägge in some cases.