Indian sword with strange markings for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

For some reason this mark reminds of those enigmatic comet or shooting-star type marks occasionally found on Sudanese kaskara blades ...

Well observed Colin!! In is that same convention it is likely intended, or at least its inspiration was. It is often hard to say when such markings are copied by subsequent makers as they often apply such marks without realizing the original intent, and replicate them to add desirability to the blade.

We have still never really figured out those markings on kaskara, which are profoundly enigmatic. Its always fascinating to see the many well thought out ideas many have entered on these, many quite compelling.

[ariel]

AFAIK, the word “ tegha” stems from “tigh”, i.e. just “ sword” :-)
I can’t recall mentioning its ability to cut through cloth armor.
Bent baluster suggests 17th century.

The “ wings” of the handle undoubtedly owe their existence to the Khanda handle, and it in turn stems from the “ old Indian basket” encountered on old Southern swords.

My guess ( a guess, no more) that we may me talking of a Mahratta/ Deccan as a nexus of that construction: Northern Mughal curved blade and a Southern- inspired handle.

Real ch’hattra ( umbrella sign) was always very simple and compact, with no embellishments. This one has circles with dots, a crescent base etc. that look rather vulgar. Those are indications of a spurious marking, kind of “ too much to be true” phenomenon.

But decorations aside, the worth of a sword is in its fighting ability and I have very little doubt that it could perform admirably in the hour of need.

I have never encountered( or just cannot remember) another Indian sword with such fabric wrappings. But your example of a similar one indicates a somewhat more widespread use. You might be correct: some people just felt that it improved their grasp.

[Drabant1701]

Many thanks for your comments. It would be nice if the sword is actually older than I thought, often it is the other way around.
Anyways, I have new theory what the mark is. Ariel mentioned Rajput Arms and Armor by Elgood, and the chapter about umbrella marks. I have the book (very heavy, good read) so I read that part again. Elgood writes:

"In India the state umbrella was believed to be the abode of the goddess Lakshmi"

So I googled Lakshmi, she sits on a bed of lotus petals. Some times with an umbrella or/and a pointy hat.

I think the anchor shaped part of the sword mark is representing the bed of lotus. The rings with dots could represent lotus flowers. I added some pictures of paintings of the goddess I tried to find old examples. What do you think?

[ariel]

Very interesting. I never thought of that angle.
But .... where is Lakshmi?

[mariusgmioc]

Why umbrella?! And even less likely an Indian umbrella.

To me, it looks more like some sort of palm tree.

One can clearly distinguish the characteristic trunk and the soil with tall grass.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Why umbrella?! And even less likely an Indian umbrella.

To me, it looks more like some sort of palm tree.

One can clearly distinguish the characteristic trunk and the soil with tall grass.

Interesting suggestion, and well illustrates the 'Rohrshach' circumstance when markings become highly stylized or poorly executed, or both.
As Ariel has noted, this particular 'umbrella' is a bit 'overembellished' as would be the case when an artisan is striving for ultra imbuement.

There are cases of Indian blades where the 'sickle marks' as often seen on blades in Northwest India, are used in linear fashion lining the entire blade along the back (not spine). There are many cases of other markings being imitated in various interpretations.

The case of the 'Passau wolf' is a good one concerning 'stylization' and these representations of the 'wolf' are seen in dramation variation, some virtually just chops in a pattern which barely resembles a wolf or any particular quadruped. Oakeshott once noted that these were seen as a unicorn in some cases, and it seems other interpretations are known as well.

With the numbers on the blade, it does seem these are 'stippled' which would concur with the method of numbering or administrative inventory used by the Bikaner armory iin Rajasthan. These were however in Devanagari or other dialectic Indian script. Whatever the case, this is hardly an aesthetic addition, and further suggests this was probably a combat oriented weapon rather than court intended accoutrement.

[Jim McDougall]

Drabant, we crossed posts, and just read your excellent observations, very well explained.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interesting suggestion, and well illustrates the 'Rohrshach' circumstance when markings become highly stylized or poorly executed, or both.
As Ariel has noted, this particular 'umbrella' is a bit 'overembellished' as would be the case when an artisan is striving for ultra imbuement.

There are cases of Indian blades where the 'sickle marks' as often seen on blades in Northwest India, are used in linear fashion lining the entire blade along the back (not spine). There are many cases of other markings being imitated in various interpretations.

The case of the 'Passau wolf' is a good one concerning 'stylization' and these representations of the 'wolf' are seen in dramation variation, some virtually just chops in a pattern which barely resembles a wolf or any particular quadruped. Oakeshott once noted that these were seen as a unicorn in some cases, and it seems other interpretations are known as well.

With the numbers on the blade, it does seem these are 'stippled' which would concur with the method of numbering or administrative inventory used by the Bikaner armory iin Rajasthan. These were however in Devanagari or other dialectic Indian script. Whatever the case, this is hardly an aesthetic addition, and further suggests this was probably a combat oriented weapon rather than court intended accoutrement.

Well put Jim. A similar example to the wolf and umbrella is the Assad Allah Lion. On many Qajar swords you know it's a lion mark because its always a lion mark. For someone not knowing what they are looking for it may as well be a dog, a pig or hippopotamus.

I was doing some more reading in the umbrella thread on the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=umbrella

There is some discussion about the tree of life in connection to the umbrella in south Borneo. So there might be a tree in there after all.

The thread also has the photo below. I am not claiming it to be similar to the mark on my sword. It does however have a half circle+ at the bottom. So there are other umbrellas out there with unorthodox bottoms.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by ariel

Very interesting. I never thought of that angle.
But .... where is Lakshmi?

Considering the quality of the engraving the carver probably thought carving the goddess was outside his skills set. Kind of like the cross of Christianity, its easy carving a cross but try carving Jesus Christ on it. It's not a picture of the goddess but a symbol in her place.

Maybe the mark has nothing to do with the royal umbrella, and its only purpose was to aid the swords wielder with good fortune in battle.

Marius
I will entertain any idea, and it sure looks like the trunk of a palm tree.
However If you look at picture below you will see that i have highlighted the dots below the shade that symbolize suspended pearls. These are a common trait on umbrellas on Indian swords. The handle represents the gods as the center of the universe. And as you can see on the far superior umbrella that I put next to mine that one also has a palm tree for a handle.

I realize that the mark could look like many things but in the context that its in what is a resemble assumption. There are many examples of umbrellas on Indian swords. There is also insentive to put them there both cultural and for status reasons.

I have looked at the palm tree as a possibility but can find no examples of trees carved into swords from this period. The palm branch can be a symbol of victory, so I would not completely rule out putting palm trees on swords.