Cuphilt Sword with Damascus blade?

[M ELEY]

I would reiterate what others have already said; just because there are composite elements here, that doesn't mean this wasn't a 'working model'. As I'm always the dude that perpetually brings up 'Spanish colonial', I would again suggest this might be such a piece made from an assemblage of available parts on the frontier. The cup/bowl and guard/knuckle bow appear to be classic munitions-grade military, the pommel from an earlier piece. The blade is a puzzle, but also fascinating and has an amazing pattern. I am in agreement that the blade appears more European and of the classic shape for these type swords. The blade made in a forge in one of the Spanish colonies to proper shape, but in the local fashion? This isn't uncommon at all. The only thing that detracts for me is the wire grip. I'd pickle the metal black if it were mine...

A great piece none the less!

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I would reiterate what others have already said; just because there are composite elements here, that doesn't mean this wasn't a 'working model'. As I'm always the dude that perpetually brings up 'Spanish colonial', I would again suggest this might be such a piece made from an assemblage of available parts on the frontier. The cup/bowl and guard/knuckle bow appear to be classic munitions-grade military, the pommel from an earlier piece. The blade is a puzzle, but also fascinating and has an amazing pattern. I am in agreement that the blade appears more European and of the classic shape for these type swords. The blade made in a forge in one of the Spanish colonies to proper shape, but in the local fashion? This isn't uncommon at all. The only thing that detracts for me is the wire grip. I'd pickle the metal black if it were mine...

A great piece none the less!

Yes a great piece. If not a local Indian blade I wonder if it could be a local Malay or Filipino Moro pattern welded blade? Or maybe Jim is right that this could be an experimental Frankish/viking revival pattern welded blade.

I love the pommel which looks baroque. It has a nut but looks like the nut is a separate part from the pommel.

[Will M]

Does the blade pattern continue on the ricasso behind the shell guard?
Usually these kind of blades are not springy though I'm curious if it has some flex to it, it appears to be a light and fast blade.

[AHorsa]

As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images.
The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword.

[Will M]

Interesting that this blade has the same semicircular weld join as seen on circ. 1800 British swords joining the iron tang to the steel blade.
Also interesting the blade flexes, the steels used in the Damascus blade must both be hardened with spring qualities.
I would say quite a special blade in its day and today.
Could it be the blade is earlier than the hilt? An earlier blade re hilted to the then current type?
I don't think it's Indian made, their steel was not the quality of this. In fact many 1796LC blades were re hilted and used in India because of the steels better qualities.

[kai]

Hello forumites,

I believe we'd first had to ascertain that this really is not any genuine European blade from the most likely period before starting to go off tangents! From my point of view there is no need to refer to remote cultures as a putative origin for this blade...

1. As mentioned, welding a tang of soft iron (or very mild steel) to a blade is a time-honoured technique (in Europe as well as globally); it avoids breakage and unnecessary expenses (for higher carbon steel). IMHO there is no hint for any later repair work on the blade.
2. The blade is laminated. This is again a time-honoured, basic technique to combine different qualities of steel - with lower and higher carbon content, possibly also with different amounts of impurities like phosphor, etc. - especially if one wasn't able to control the steel quality or needed to work on a limited budget. If you economically forge-weld heterogeneous material, you tend to end up with laminations as seen here (regardless of the origin being Europe, India, Indonesia, Bangsa Moro, China, you-name-it...).
3. The structure of the laminations does not suggest that the blade smith was aiming at welding any controlled pattern especially done for show; I see no need to invoke sources famous for elaborate pattern-welding (Celtic, Alemannic, Viking, "Damascus", India, the SEA archipelago, ...)
4. In pretty much all cultures the quality of blades does vary (widely).
5. As an aside: There are lots of laminated blades originating from the South Asian subcontinent and neighbouring regions (as well as blades forged from crucible steel including wootz); and blades from both steel types may also exhibit elaborate pattern-welding if the blade smith did choose to do so.

From what I can glean from the pics, the only unusual feature of this blade seems to be that it got thoroughly cleaned, probably polished, and apparently treated with an etchant like ferric chloride or phosphoric acid in the not too distant past (if stored well, this look can be preserved for extended periods though). If such TLC were given more often by inquisitive collectors, I'm sure we would be more used to seeing laminated blades from all over Europe with contrasting layers of steel.

I can't clearly make it out from the pics: Are the edges (inserted or forming a central layer) made from steel with higher carbon content? This may be conflated by losses from sharpening during prolonged use and/or restoration.

BTW, good quality blades tend to become somewhat springy when they loose a considerable amount of material from prolonged wear (and/or restoration).

Regards,
Kai

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello forumites,

I believe we'd first had to ascertain that this really is not any genuine European blade from the most likely period before starting to go off tangents! From my point of view there is no need to refer to remote cultures as a putative origin for this blade...

1. As mentioned, welding a tang of soft iron (or very mild steel) to a blade is a time-honoured technique (in Europe as well as globally); it avoids breakage and unnecessary expenses (for higher carbon steel). IMHO there is no hint for any later repair work on the blade.
2. The blade is laminated. This is again a time-honoured, basic technique to combine different qualities of steel - with lower and higher carbon content, possibly also with different amounts of impurities like phosphor, etc. - especially if one wasn't able to control the steel quality or needed to work on a limited budget. If you economically forge-weld heterogeneous material, you tend to end up with laminations as seen here (regardless of the origin being Europe, India, Indonesia, Bangsa Moro, China, you-name-it...).
3. The structure of the laminations does not suggest that the blade smith was aiming at welding any controlled pattern especially done for show; I see no need to invoke sources famous for elaborate pattern-welding (Celtic, Alemannic, Viking, "Damascus", India, the SEA archipelago, ...)
4. In pretty much all cultures the quality of blades does vary (widely).
5. As an aside: There are lots of laminated blades originating from the South Asian subcontinent and neighbouring regions (as well as blades forged from crucible steel including wootz); and blades from both steel types may also exhibit elaborate pattern-welding if the blade smith did choose to do so.

From what I can glean from the pics, the only unusual feature of this blade seems to be that it got thoroughly cleaned, probably polished, and apparently treated with an etchant like ferric chloride or phosphoric acid in the not too distant past (if stored well, this look can be preserved for extended periods though). If such TLC were given more often by inquisitive collectors, I'm sure we would be more used to seeing laminated blades from all over Europe with contrasting layers of steel.

I can't clearly make it out from the pics: Are the edges (inserted or forming a central layer) made from steel with higher carbon content? This may be conflated by losses from sharpening during prolonged use and/or restoration.

BTW, good quality blades tend to become somewhat springy when they loose a considerable amount of material from prolonged wear (and/or restoration).

Regards,
Kai

Are you arguing that this is a conventional European 18thC blade where lamination patterns were revealed due to thorough cleaning and chemical treatment? Can you show us any more examples?

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images.
The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword.

For what it is worth, the blade on my cup hilt arming sword is of similar profile and is also light and flexible. I posted it recently here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26389

Looking at the corrosion patterns on mine, I'm wondering if mine would reveal a similar pattern to yours if over-cleaned.

[shayde78]

Stumbled across this older thread of a piece formerly held by Fernando.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Smallsword

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks the patterning looks similar to the subject of this thread

[mariusgmioc]

In my opinion the blade clearly displays a pattern welded structure and NOT a simple lamination.

The streaks of differently toned steel imply that two different types of steel were used. Simply laminated blades do not show such high contrast between layers.